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Thread: Why is there no competitive PVE - or - Why there is no competitive PVE

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
    I don't understand you. In every competitive sport, some people have advantages over others.

    Some people having advantages in no way means it's not competitive.

    There will always be informal player competition to get world firsts on new raids, just like in WOW, or see how few people you can use to take down a boss, etc.

    I don't recall anyone ever saying "Hey, your world first didn't count because you guys have been playing together as a guild longer, have a larger pool of skilled main tanks, and have better gear!"
    In every competitive sport, no specific players / teams have mechanical / rule-based advantages over others. In every competitive sport at the moment, all players / teams play under the same rules. No team has an inherent advantage over the other, but one player / team will have the advantage that comes from being better at the sport.

    If you had a specific guild that had "raid bosses has 10% less health" they would never be listed in any legitimate WoW PvE ranking because it would not be fair to the other guilds.

    Lastly, there was actually a case of something like this in Rift before the expansion. Infernal Dawn (the last raid before the expansion) had a final boss that was exploitable. The guild that actually did it first used this exploit to defeat the boss, but the "world first" was rewarded to another guild that did it without using the exploit (not only from the community, but the devs acknowledged that the second guild was the first guild to down the boss legitimately). Fortunately, these two attempts were not long in between which allowed the first guild to actually "rank", because if they would've been let farming the final boss (which dropped the best gear) for a while before attempting the boss "legit" I would guess they wouldn't even be ranked by the community.

  2. #22
    Good thing players will have the option to disable the Raid Leader bonus. It makes sense to turn that off, unless the community accepts this as a legitimate boon granted by the game creators.

    But what about the guild master bonus? Would a guild need to turn off this XP bonus for the entirety of their play for any achievement to be legitimate? Seems to me that most guilds will have this bonus until the game becomes huge, so perhaps it isn't a big deal.
    Last edited by Rycajo; 06-29-2013 at 12:57 PM.

  3. #23
    As others have said, the playing field will never be level; other players will always have more cards & money to throw at a problem, or more time to practice, or more free time at launch, etc.

    Also, someone else remarked that DCs do not get double the loot, just double the rolls. I believe this statement was incorrect- each roll corresponds to loot that is dropped. You get twice the rewards from dungeons, because you roll twice. It doesn't roll twice and take the higher, just rolls twice and takes both. At least, that's what it sounded like to me.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    As others have said, the playing field will never be level; other players will always have more cards & money to throw at a problem, or more time to practice, or more free time at launch, etc.

    Also, someone else remarked that DCs do not get double the loot, just double the rolls. I believe this statement was incorrect- each roll corresponds to loot that is dropped. You get twice the rewards from dungeons, because you roll twice. It doesn't roll twice and take the higher, just rolls twice and takes both. At least, that's what it sounded like to me.
    Correct. Two rolls, equalling two rewards. And slightly higher chances (statistically speaking) of walking away with something rare from the loot table, since you're rolling on it twice instead of once.
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  5. #25
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    There will be competitive PvE. At least as far as PvE goes. No PvE is actually competitive in the same sense that PvP is. Which is why it gets a lot less attention because its a whole lot more silly. But it will be there! No prizes though.

  6. #26
    I can't really see what you mean by silly.
    However ofc things will never be on the same level, I agree.
    But I can't blame people for just beeing better at something, can I.
    The rules however can be the same for everyone like Unhurtable pointed out.

    I have some PVE advantages myself with the Kickstarter (incl. the Lotus).
    But if there would be anything like competition in PVE i'd like a mode to ignore
    all of this, if it gets accounted for.

    I can see the problem that people can buy every card on the AH if they so desire.
    Making loot account bound would take a trading card game ad absurdum ofc.
    So that doesn't work.

    But my suggestion would be to do it like other MMO's and with each new big PVE content
    update render all PVE stuff utterly useless. It sounds cruel, i know, but on the other hand you don't pay real money for PVE cards what makes it legitimate.

    That would also create the advantage/disadvantage of rendering PVP stuff useless for PVE too.
    MMOs do this for good and it always was healthy for the game.
    Doing this, every "season" would be a "reset" and also new players have a chance to play
    in the tops (like in a draft).

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    As others have said, the playing field will never be level; other players will always have more cards & money to throw at a problem, or more time to practice, or more free time at launch, etc.

    Also, someone else remarked that DCs do not get double the loot, just double the rolls. I believe this statement was incorrect- each roll corresponds to loot that is dropped. You get twice the rewards from dungeons, because you roll twice. It doesn't roll twice and take the higher, just rolls twice and takes both. At least, that's what it sounded like to me.
    Mechanics / rule wise the playing field can be leveled. In our case this will most likely not be the case for competitive PvE. "More time to practice or more free time at launch" has nothing to do with how level the playing field is.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Unhurtable View Post
    In every competitive sport, no specific players / teams have mechanical / rule-based advantages over others.
    Same thing in Hex.

    Having better cards is just like having better gear. Everyone is still playing by the same rules.

    Getting 10% exp is a complete non factor. You could do the same thing in wow with potions, IIRC. That's just a reward for killing the monster, doesn't help you kill the monster.

    Anyway, some people have a lot more time to play than others and will be far more than 10% ahead of you in levels. That doesn't break the level playing field at all.
    Last edited by Vorpal; 06-29-2013 at 05:04 PM.

  9. #29
    Vorpal, the issue is Raid Leader KS bonuses and to a lesser extent Dungeon Crawler bonus.

    But I'm gonna say, that for world first and competitive PVE, it's not gonna matter. People do world first bosses in WoW using Green Gear, because for those high tier players its more about learning and overcoming the mechanics then about what bonuses they have.

    I don't see Hex being any different. Raids will be about unlocking the strategy and creative deck building. RL and DC bonus might help, but not in a significant way. I think once you beat the boss, it'd be trivial to turn off your bonus, run it one more time and win.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
    Same thing in Hex.

    Having better cards is just like having better gear. Everyone is still playing by the same rules.

    Getting 10% exp is a complete non factor. You could do the same thing in wow with potions, IIRC. That's just a reward for killing the monster, doesn't help you kill the monster.

    Anyway, some people have a lot more time to play than others and will be far more than 10% ahead of you in levels. That doesn't break the level playing field at all.
    No?

    A team with the Raid Leader buff has a mechanical advantage over a team without the Raid Leader buff, if there is a competition.

    I'd agree that getting 10% exp is of very little importance in a race to world firsts, especially later when everybody is max level.

    What does people having a lot more time to play have to do with mechanical / rule advantages?

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