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Thread: Comprehensive Auction House and Currency Discussion

  1. #1
    The Transcended
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    Lightbulb Comprehensive Auction House and Currency Discussion

    The following is intended to be improved over time through community feedback. Please let me know what you like and dislike through constructive inputs. Help appreciated.

    My Topics of Note:
    1) Fractional transactions versus larger supply (Plat)
    2) Fixed-supply gold versus non-inflationary open system versus inflationary open system

    Proposals:
    Gold
    • Gold comes only from PVE play.
    • After an initial ramp-up at launch, the supply of gold is very large (to provide currency resolution).
    • There is a strong and effective system of NPC gold sinks.
    • Gold supply variation, after initial ramp up, is kept very low through monitoring of the supply and the aforementioned gold sinks. On the inflationary side, this means at or below the inflation of USD (Plat).

      Discussion: (1) It is important that CZE not sell gold for plat (or vice versa) as this would destroy the ability of the market to regulate the exchange rate. (2) There has been much debate about whether a fixed-supply model would work for gold. In the end, what is important is not whether the system is open (loot tables with gold never change) or closed (loot tables vary based on gold supply), it is that supply fluctuation is curbed. And actually, even "inflation" isn't bad as long as every gold coin represents the same approximate amount of player time investment (this is its intrinsic value). In other words, bots (and other exploits) are the biggest worry, not the particular currency system.

    Plat
    • Plat comes only from CZE for $US at some rate.
    • For currency resolution, we need either fractional transactions or a rate of X Plat to 1 USD, where X is a "large enough" power of ten (maybe 1000). Update: CZE stated a ratio of 100:1 (link)

      Discussion: (1) Giving out Plat for anything other than USD breaks the intuitive link between the two. (2) High currency resolution ensures ability to handle small transactions like single copies of common cards. (3) I do not recall the trade-offs for fractional transactions versus larger Plat:USD ratio.

    Currency Exchange and AH Fees
    • Plat and Gold can be traded Player to Player at a floating market rate on the AH. (We'll call this the Currency Exchange, or CurEx.)
    • Currency for AH listings (3 choices): gold-only, plat-only, hybrid.
      • Gold-only: All listings in Gold. AH fees are a sweet gold sink.
      • Plat-only: All listings in Plat. AH fees are CZE profit.
      • Hybrid (my current favorite): PVE items list in Gold, PVP items list in Plat.
    • AH fees should exist.
    • CurEx fees should exist, probably as a gold sink rather than plat sink.

      Discussion: (1) True and complete segregation of gold from platinum is nearly impossible. (2) Since gold/plat interaction will exist in some form even if the AH does not enable it, it is desirable to have the transparency of a CurEx so that all players know what the exchange rate is and are thus protected from crooked dealings. Transparency can also help with detection of malicious behaviors. (3) CurEx fees will probably be necessary to cut down on currency speculation. (4) If CurEx exists, there is no reason to suffer the market imbalance of having a divided AH (some listings gold, some plat for the same exact commodity). (5) The hard decision is then which currency to use as the standard. If gold, then AH fees serve as a powerful gold sink since nearly all players will want to use the AH. Also if gold, then the CurEx fees will really bite pure PVP players (bad). If plat, then AH fees are profit for CZE, but you give up a great gold sink. If hybrid, you get the best of both (though lesser in each case). In all cases, fees discourage high-speed and micro-trading (especially bots).

    AH Detailed Mechanics (HexBAS)
    • All AH listings show prices in both currencies simultaneously using parenthesis and the CurEx market price for the off currency.
    • The AH uses HexBAS, a modified Bid/Ask system (GW2), not a traditional auction system (WOW). (See description below.)

      Discussion: HexBAS stands for Hex Bid/Ask System, and is an adaptation of the systems used in Guild Wars 2, EVE Online, and real world commodity markets. HexBAS is equal or superior to a standard AH (eBay, WOW, D3) in every way discussed so far, including: use of demand (Bid) information in addition to supply (Ask), uniqueness (e.g. double-back stats), multiple listings (playsets, mixed lots), efficiency for the average user, transparency, tools for advanced users, and more. (Please let me know if I've missed something.)


    The Hex Bid/ASK System (HexBAS)
    The goal is to avoid the inefficient market formats used in games like World of Warcraft and MTGO and places like eBay. The basis of the HexBAS idea is a system like real world stock markets and games like Guild Wars 2 and EVE, which have been shown efficient and effective.

    There is one problem for Hex, however, since the cards are not perfect commodities due to the potential value of the double-back stats. (A card with 98% XP and an achievement or two is likely worth more than one with 5% XP and no achievements.) This can be fixed with some small alterations for how items are listed. Note that other commodities (equipment, currencies) can work under a traditional bid/ask system. If Promo Mercs were to be made tradeable (update: now they are!), then they would either need to be treated like cards so that their XP value can be factored in or would need to have XP wiped at time of trade.

    The system:
    • SELLING: Click on an item you wish to sell, enter a price, and click Sell At This Price. This is called an Ask Limit Order and will remain outstanding until fulfilled, expired, or retracted. The UI can allow entry of multiple at a time as one Order, but they are all listed separately.
    • BUYING: Type in a search for what you want. Click on an item type you wish to buy. (You do not select a specific listing.) If you are interested in particular double-back stats, enter the features you want: alternate art (yes/no/don't care), minimum % XP, and must-have achievements (checkboxes). Enter the price you wish to pay and click Buy At This Price. This is called a Bid Limit Order and will remain outstanding until fulfilled, expired, or retracted. The funds for the Bid are taken out of your account immediately, but will be returned to you if the Bid falls through. The UI can allow entry of multiple at a time as one Order, but they are all listed separately.
    • SELLING INSTANTLY: Same as for selling, but instead of entering a price, just click Sell At Market Price. (The approximate market price would be listed next to the button.) This is called an Ask Market Order. HexBAS might issue a warning: "Do not use this option if trying to get extra money from double-back stats like alternate art, foil, achievements, or XP. Since those might fetch a premium, you may want to Sell At This Price rather than Sell At Market Price. [] Do not show this warning in the future. [Proceed] [Cancel]"
    • BUYING INSTANTLY: Same as for buying, but instead of entering a price, just click Buy At Market Price. (The approximate market price would be listed next to the button.) This is called a Bid Market Order.
    • TYPES OF ORDERS: You may have noticed that there are two ways to buy and two ways to sell: Market Orders and Limit Orders for both Bid and Ask. A Market Order is executed as soon as possible at the best available price (you get instant gratification but do not get to choose your price). A Limit Order is executed only when it is the best price available and only in response to a Market Order (you must wait, but you get control of your price).
    • LIST ASSIST, SELLING: When first entering the Sell tab, there could be a Suggested to Sell list showing things you have in excess of need (more than 4 of for cards, 1 of for other stuff) so you know what your excess inventory is. The list would also show market price (ignoring double-back) and a Sell At Market Price button for each item. Clicking the button or double-click could issue an Ask Market Order for the item (possible HexBAS warning pop-up as noted above under "selling instantly"). Single click could highlight the item and show a price entry box with "Sell At This Price".
    • ALL OR NONE ORDERS: A Market Order can be marked "All or None". This will allow it to be grouped with another Market Order (recursively) to create arbitrarily large group orders (mixed lots). "All or None" ensures that either the entire group is executed in trade or they all remain pending. Before you confirm your order, HexBAS will give you an estimated total value based on market price. As with all market orders, your actual execution price may vary.
    • THE BOOK: All outstanding Bids and Asks for a given commodity are kept in a sorted list for easy reference (this is the "book" for that commodity). Items are not grouped up; they are all shown individually. The list must show relevant double-back statistics so that a high Bid or Ask has context.
    • ANONYMITY: All listings are anonymous.
    • INFORMATION: The game should offer every possible bit of anonymous market information that it can in as many useful ways as possible.


    Continued in post 7 (hijacked)...
    Last edited by Yoss; 06-11-2014 at 05:35 PM.

  2. #2
    I propose CZE does whatever they feel is best in their own estimation, with the experts they have hired, and work from there, and entirely ignore this community on this topic.

    I actually propose that as an alternative to all past, and future community proposals.


    Edit: If you want an actual comprehensive list of the pros and cons of many different systems, feel free to check out http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26857 It's locked for no particular reason other than it actually does what this thread claims to do, without an oppressive dictator.
    Last edited by Gwaer; 08-13-2013 at 04:46 PM.
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    HexEnt is too long to type, They're HXE now.
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  3. #3
    Forcing everything to be sold for gold seems like it would cause alot of problems. A lot of people PvP player may never have a use for gold, and has to deal with turning plat to gold to buy stuff, and gold back to plat after they sell. Also fluctuations in gold value is now short term impacking the monetary value of pvp cards.

  4. #4
    While I agree that it is ultimately CZE's decision, I think it is counterproductive to tell CZE to ignore inputs. Ignoring inputs do not make a good leader. It is best to hear out all the inputs and THEN make a decision. I think these kind of posts should be encouraged.

  5. #5
    Determined Zombie
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    Whenever a Bid is placed above an existing Ask that meets or exceeds the Bid double-back requirements, a trade is executed at the Ask price. (Someone please clarify if this is how a normal bid/ask works.)
    No this is not normal, atleast in my experience. If someone lists an item for 2,000 gold (or what ever) because they think it's worth that much. But someone else who wants the item thinks it's worth 30,000 and therefore bids 30,000 off the bat. The owner should get all that currency the person is willing to spend. This allow the prices to fluctuate more freely and give people a better idea of how much their stuff is worth.

    The best auction house i've seen in any game belonged to City of heroes/villains.

  6. #6
    It's just noise if the inputer doesn't have the full picture, which we do not. This happens with every single topic on this forum. We just don't know enough about how their systems will be working together to actually provide meaningful input like this. The discussions that led up to this point can be useful, the why's and how's that got people to here can be very valuable. But this? A system proposal, that's better left to the people that have a full brief of the situation, how pve/pvp will intermingle, how plat/gold will interact. How much gold we'll have access too, how fast will we have it? All of that stuff plays a huge role in this kind of thing.
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    HexEnt is too long to type, They're HXE now.
    I am currently trading my unused GK code for a new Tesla Model S P85D
    Feel free to contact me for where you can have it shipped.

  7. #7
    The Transcended
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    (Post hijacked to extend the OP.)
    HexBAS UI

    HexBAS would be just as easy to use as a Traditional Auction House (TAH). Things that TAH Would not have are in bold. (TAH might also have some other controls that HexBAS does not need, since HexBAS does not have auction-style bidding. For example, there's no Starting Price to worry about, only a "Buy It Now" price. Complexity wise, this added field cancels out the added Sell Now button on the HexBAS seller screen.)

    Two screens: Buying and Selling
    (Eventually there might be an Analytics screen, but that would be much later after Hex is the world's most profitable TCG.)

    SELLING
    Shows your collection, with tabs for PVP, PVE, Equipment, and Other. On each tab, shows a list of all your stuff with columns for Name, Rarity, Quantity, Market Price. Default would be sorted descenting by Quantity so that you know what items you have excess of. Clicking a column header would sort by that attribute. Default sort would be Alphabetical for Name, Leg/Rare/Unc/Com order for Rarity, Descending for Quantity, and Descending for Price. A second click on the same column will reverse the sort order. Mouse-over a row should work like in the Deck Builder, showing relevant details about the item like: rules text/stats and double-back stats.

    Additional columns to the right of each item would have the Seller Controls: button for "Sell Now" with Price listed (The Sell Now price would be the highest Bid Limit Order for which your item qualifies. Sell Now would also be accomplished by double-click anywhere in the sortable columns. The button and price would be colored to show grouping.), button for "Wait for My Price" with input fields for Price and Quantity next to it (The button and entry fields would be colored to show grouping. The price could default to match the lowest existing Ask and Quantity could default to your excess.), and a View Market button to give a pop-up showing all the outstanding Limit Orders for that item.


    BUYING
    Across the top would be the same four tabs: PVP, PVE, Equipment, and Other. Default view on each tab, if you haven't viewed it in a while (say 30 minutes maybe), shows the top 20 most expensive items for sale (Ask Limit Orders), giving highlight advertising to what might otherwise be difficult to sell. Otherwise, the default will be whatever you were last viewing. Each tab would have at the top a Search input field with double-back feature choices to the right: AA (yes/no/either), Min XP% (which covers Foils by entering 100%), and an Achievements button for a pop-up to select must-have achievements. Defaults for double-back would be: AA-either, XP-0, and no achievements required. As you type in the Search field, it would suggest possible matches that you can click on.

    After you search, the Book for that item is displayed in ascending order of Price, with Bids suppressed by default (since a casual Buyer usually won't care what other Buyers are bidding) but with a check box to toggle them on or off (to the right of the Achievements filter button). The diplayed data would be: Name, Price, AA, XP%, a field for up to three Achievement images, and a "more" link in case there are more than three achievements. Double-click on a listing will buy it. Mouse-over a row should work like in the Deck Builder, showing relevant details about the item like rules text/stats and double-back stats.

    The second row below the Search function would have somthing like "Double click an item to buy it. If you don't like these listings, then click here to Make an Offer." If you "click here", it reveals entry fields for Quantity, Price, the double-back stuff (same as on the Search line) and a button for Make Offer. (This is how you'd enter a Bid Limit Order.)

    Fixed Supply: One Way to Prevent Inflation of Gold
    Please note that this item is hotly contested and the remaining proposal items are not contingent upon it. Also note that there are other options that would also work. UPDATE 9/17/2014: The economy is now up and running using a standard inflationary model. We'll see how well Chark can control the money supply.
    Click here to see the proposal.

    FAQ for the OP
    (This needs work. Help wanted.)
    Q: Isn't messing with currency exchange too complicated?
    A: No. Players who like it simple will just click on items and buy them without even knowing they're using the currency exchange. (Subject to market liquidity limitations.)

    Q: How does HexBAS handle playsets?
    A: Easy! In the simplest case where you just want it done ASAP, you select the card you want, select a quantity of 4, and click "Sell (Market Order)". If you want a specific price and are willing to wait, you also enter the price and instead click "Sell (Limit Order)". In either case, HexBAS will take care of separating out the four listings and putting them in the book for execution. Buying works much the same way.

    Q: How does HexBAS handle mixed lots? What if I am not willing to sell X unless I also sell Y?
    A: For groups of Market Orders, choose the "All or None" option.

    Q: Should gold/plat interact? Is it even possible for them not to?
    A: The most accepted answer is "yes they should" but it is not definitive (yet). In order to answer "no" one must figure out HOW to segregate them. This is not trivial, nor intuitive. So far, no one has postulated a system that would work, though several have tried (future discussion?).

    Q: Wouldn't AH fees encourage off-AH trading to get around them?
    A: To some extent, yes, but if the fees are low enough then the added convenience of the AH will be worth the payments. The trick for CZE will be to find the right level where the value of the service matches the cost of the fees.

    Q: What's the difference between PRICE and VALUE?
    A: See post 157, section 3.

    Q: Would HexBAS encourage players to just play the market all day?
    A: Players who enjoy playing the exchange in other games will also do it here regardless of the system we choose, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, these players will be the ones posting Limit Orders that provide market liquidity to the more casual crowd (who uses Market Orders by default). In this sense, they are providing a service for a fee.

    Previous threads on related topics:
    Economy Question: How will Gold and Platinum Interact?
    Avoiding the need for fractional gold/platinum.
    Auction House style: take notes from GW2 please
    Last edited by Yoss; 09-17-2014 at 10:09 PM.

  8. #8
    I'm with Gwaer. Players giving feedback is one thing, but trying to have influence on how the economy is managed before the game is even up and running is a BAD idea. We have no clue what they are planning or what they are trying to accomplish, and giving any kind of weight or volume to the community's uneducated opinion on this matter could have a severe negative impact on CZE's plans if they listen to us just because we're being loud.

    We should stay out of this one for now.
    --ossuary

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  9. #9
    The Transcended
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    You do realize that this is nothing more than a compilation of bits and pieces from various threads, right? Meaning, all the ideas here have already been presented before, and without such complaints, just not in a unified fassion.

  10. #10
    Master Theorycrafter
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    I am not a fan of gold only transactions since it generates uncertainty for those transacting predominantly in platinum. Unless you are immediately meeting buy orders you cannot accurately predict the platinum value in gold because the exchange rate is not fixed, even in a scenario where you do take up a buy order the seconds involved in completing the transaction and going to the gold/platinum exchange can result in a loss (this can also potentially be a gain but the uncertainty around loss creates greater aversion than possible gains). I already have to deal with currency exchange and fluctuation going from $NZ to $US when purchasing platinum I do not want a second set of uncertainty.

    The other big issue is what happens at launch - there is no gold available so the exchange will be unstable for early transactors and heavily skew in favour of those who choose to PVE early.

    I have to say I am with Gwaer on this one, let them do what their experts think is right - I can accept any plan but if they are going to take a community supported one I have to put my name against this idea since my plans mostly focus around PVP and this system is unstable for platinum users. Too much community feedback can be problematic unless they focus only on those aspects which have universal or near universal support since while it is empowering to have an idea you support picked up it is conversely harder to accept a community sourced proposal you do not support.
    Hi, my name is Malicus and my will to resist Hex is weak.

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