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Thread: 1 Free Mulligan. No prerequisites

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
    Attacking? Considering how well and consistently you all troll the place I'd consider that a compliment. You are right about a trolls being laid back though, they don't give a unicornpoop about anything and it shows. I mean if any of you lot cared about this game you'd be contributing instead of trolling.

    Serious time, I am fed up of patronising you. All you BB members do is troll this place. Every single one of you. But the blame isn't squarely on you lot, you are just the biggest contributors. If you wasn't then I wouldn't have had to made this post highlighting it.
    I have seen more constrctive posts out of CBB members (Gwaer excluded since you seem to have a problem with him) than I ever have from you. Every time I see you post (and this is not an exaggeration, I actually wish it was) you are either complaining or fighting.

    I have never seen a useful idea (or even an idea that wasn't just a repeat of something someone else said) come from you in all your time here. You are consistantly negative, and never contribute anything positive.

    Even putting aside my dislike of you, and the conflict over the past few days... I have not even seen you being nice to anyone unless they agree with you. Everything you post is self serving or aggressive.

    If that isn't a description of someone who is intentionally trolling, then we need to redefine the word, and fast.
    Xenavire, proud guild leader for The Lions Share.
    http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...erlinsmall.png

  2. #42

  3. #43
    No, as evidenced in the now locked topic because you shat all over it xen this describes you not me. All you did in that topic was rage about mulligan topics when that topic wasn't even about them, you were just so blind in your mindless fury you wanted it to be about them. After that little demonstration of idiocy you should apply for BB since you'd fit right in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kami View Post
    Guys, drop it or take it to PM.
    No offence Kami but you are a mod, do some actual moderation. I am sick of being "labeled as a troll" because the actual trolls are allowed to get away with such trolling. Have a quick read of my posts and the posts of everyone who posted in that topic of mine you locked and tell me the behaviour of people like Xen is acceptable. Because to me it isn't and I am getting extremely sick of it. The longer you let them get away with it the worse it is only going to be.
    Last edited by VoidInsanity; 03-12-2014 at 06:59 AM.

  4. #44
    Xenavire, Gwaer, Voidsanity: You are all equally feuding/trolling. Move it to Private messages or make some thread on the general discussion forum to take it all out. Or have a google hangout. Could you guys not fill up these threads with your comments that derail topics. Again you are all equally responsible for blame don't continue arguing thinking you are better/more-right than the other, it helps/proves nothing.

    @Void: I saw that thread before. You are correct to say Xen was the one who made the mistake and starting flaming/trolling. But just ignore people who do that, just focus on the topic, you're a bit too abrasive with the responses so it must makes everyone more upset. But again, in the case of the last topic you are right it wasn't you who started that it was Xen, but you really didnt help.

    @What Shaqattaq said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqattaq View Post
    As for the self-correction, players typically don't exhibit that behavior. Overall, the mulligan should be an opportunity for the player to make a decision and facilitate more great matches, not a potential trap that leaves players with fewer engaging matches.
    I would say the >24 resources problem at the inception of alpha is a great example of exhibiting self-correcting behavior. To be honest at launch you're going to see the same threads/complaints about high chances for resource screwed, which will again correct but faster. On the overall system I see what you're saying about facilitating a great match. If you have a free mull --> Being greedy is very tempting. The cost of -1 card to the paris gives new/pro players more to consider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqattaq View Post
    The counter-intuitive trap of the free mulligan is where players can be led astray and it's far more difficult to backtrack and identify it as the issue. Also, as I mentioned earlier, the free mulligan is significantly better for certain decks as opposed to others.
    Yeah these two reasons where brought up in previous mull topics which is I thought a 7-7-5-4... system would be better. It simulates the fear of "mulling to 5" without the cost of the first mull. As for "significantly better for some decks" This was also brought up in previous discussions. I did some math in one of those threads and found it is in fact a correct assertion for some archetypes we see now, but the aggro deck impact might be overstated.

    My thought for (7-7-5-..) focuses on the idea a 5 card hand is considered a major setback for most players, but uncontrollable opening hand variance shouldn't have a negative impact on play. Having heard your reasoning am I correct to say this is the mindset you see new players playing with?:

    Paris:
    "I have a bad/only-decent hand. I can risk a better one, but I'll be at minus 1 card. Is it worth?"

    Free-Mull(7-7-Paris):
    "I have a bad/only-decent hand. I have two more chances at a better hand before I'm in trouble. Is it worth? Probs"

    7-7-5 deal(sounds like a dominoes deal):
    ""I have a bad/only-decent hand. I have one more chances at a better hand before I'm in trouble. Is it worth?""

    For this reason I think behavior-wise 7-6-5 and 7-7-5 are very similar. 7-7-5 just doesn't impose that all important card disadvantage for >10%(again a conservative #) bad initial opening hand variance.

    As for decks that benefit. Combo decks do in fact benefit with 1 extra card. But I want to emphasize mathetimacally 7-7-5 and 7-6-5 are very mathematically similar. For example Demented Mill(pre-nerf). If I want 1 demolisher in my hand and I'm willing to mull twice:

    Hypergeo(7cardHand, 60cardDeck, 4 successes in pop, >=1succes_in_sample) = P_7

    In paris: P_7 + (P'_7)(P_6) + (P'_7)(P'_6)(P_5) = .727
    In 7-7-5 deal: P_7 + (P'_7)(P_7) + (P'_7)(P'_7)(P_5) = .748

    Pretty much a 2% difference. Not too big. The REAL problem that others helped me get to was the additional mulligan players were willing to take in the 7-7-6-5 or 7-6-6-5 approach.

    Sorry I keep going back to the math, but math isn't subjective. It rarely(if ever) lies. It can mislead though, but I don't think it is in this case.
    Last edited by DackFayden; 03-12-2014 at 07:05 AM.

  5. #45
    DackFayden I don't blame you for overlooking my contribution to this topic due to certain individuals once again derailing it, so I'll quote it for convenience. I'd be interested in you doing some maths for this system.

    Quote Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
    Draw 7
    Mulligan - Discard 1 random card, draw a new hand of 6.
    Pick either hand.
    No additional Mulligans allowed.

    Its a mix between the old and new. The balance of the free mulligan and the opportunity cost of the Paris mulligan without the horrible game ending situations multi mull causes.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
    DackFayden I don't blame you for overlooking my contribution to this topic due to certain individuals once again derailing it, so I'll quote it for convenience. I'd be interested in you doing some maths for this system.
    I missed that in all the feuding (and I am not going to mention another word on it.) The idea is fresh but if I understand correctly, it is worse than the current implementation.

    Bear with me, I am being totally serious here. If your first hand was bad enough to need a mulligan, chances are the next 6 cards are going to be better than your original hand -1. If it is somehow worse, you now don't have the option to mull to 5, and both hands suck.

    I am honestly trying to see the benefit, and I am fully giving you a chance to explain, and I will listen. Did I somehow miss something that makes this better than paris mull?
    Xenavire, proud guild leader for The Lions Share.
    http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...erlinsmall.png

  7. #47
    Going to 5 isn't that bad. I don't dread it or think of it as an automatic loss.

    @void Removing the option to mulligan a third time seems unecessarily restrictive, and how is losing a random card and going to 6 either way change the mulligan? It adds additional pressure to hit the button just so you can see your options. 1 random card being lost out of a hand is rarely going to make that hand unplayable, so going to that system creates a situation where you're better off mulling all the time and picking the best of 2 6 card hands. Especially if you're on the draw.

    @dack Your numbers don't take into account that you are giving people the option to see a second hand with no penalty whatsoever, I've described repeatedly why that's bad, then shaq also pointed it out. A lot of Playable hands become extremely hard to keep when you lose nothing to try and get something a bit better. It's counterintuitive to players, it becomes something the devs want you to do in their mind. "They've given us this free mulligan, of course I should use it" every single new player will have to go through that phase. It's not something someone can easily learn on their own either, unlike the logic chain of "I consistently don't have enough resources>add more resources"
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
    No offence Kami but you are a mod, do some actual moderation. I am sick of being "labeled as a troll" because the actual trolls are allowed to get away with such trolling. Have a quick read of my posts and the posts of everyone who posted in that topic of mine you locked and tell me the behaviour of people like Xen is acceptable. Because to me it isn't and I am getting extremely sick of it. The longer you let them get away with it the worse it is only going to be.
    I will put this nicely, and this does not apply only to you: You are able to control how you respond to someone else. If you think someone is trolling, don't respond to it. Keep on topic, be objective.

    If you have an issue with a user/thread/etc, take it to PM and/or PM a mod. As this is technically a volunteer position, we are not always available 24/7 and currently I am on vacation, but we do our best.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwaer View Post
    @void Removing the option to mulligan a third time seems unecessarily restrictive, and how is losing a random card and going to 6 either way change the mulligan? It adds additional pressure to hit the button just so you can see your options. 1 random card being lost out of a hand is rarely going to make that hand unplayable, so going to that system creates a situation where you're better off mulling all the time and picking the best of 2 6 card hands. Especially if you're on the draw.
    That is why the card tossed is random, to prevent players abusing the system in that fashion. If you end up keeping you are now 1 card down for no reason, if you take the other hand it is exactly the same as Paris mull. If the cost of 1 card for the choice of either hand is still too good even with this system I have taken that into account - have the new hand be drawn face down and you can pick 3 of the cards to flip over. Sure maybe going down to 5 is fine but any less than that causes problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kami View Post
    I will put this nicely, and this does not apply only to you: You are able to control how you respond to someone else. If you think someone is trolling, don't respond to it. Keep on topic, be objective.

    If you have an issue with a user/thread/etc, take it to PM and/or PM a mod. As this is technically a volunteer position, we are not always available 24/7 and currently I am on vacation, but we do our best.
    Understandable but it is very hard to get any constructive discussion going when such things get left uncontested for days on end which is the current state of this forum. There is not even the "fear" of a mod catching you and that is a serious problem. By the time I would get a response from a PM or any action taken the damage will have already been done. Until the rules are actually enforced to a point where they are followed there is no point in reporting them being broken one by one. Secondly I don't think it is a mere coincidence that they started behaving once you made your presence known.
    Last edited by VoidInsanity; 03-12-2014 at 08:01 AM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
    That is why the card tossed is random, to prevent players abusing the system in that fashion. If you end up keeping you are now 1 card down for no reason, if you take the other hand it is exactly the same as Paris mull. If the cost of 1 card for the choice of either hand is still too good even with this system I have taken that into account - have the new hand be drawn face down and you can pick 3 of the cards to flip over. Sure maybe going down to 5 is fine but any less than that causes problems.


    Understandable but it is very hard to get any constructive discussion going when such things get left uncontested for days on end which is the current state of this forum. There is not even the "fear" of a mod catching you and that is a serious problem. By the time I would get a response from a PM or any action taken the damage will have already been done. Until the rules are actually enforced to a point where they are followed there is no point in reporting them being broken one by one.
    I am still not seeing any advantage here. I am searching as hard as I can, but so far there is no situation that I wouldn't rather keep pitching hands instead of this.

    I honestly have seen 3 card hands better than some 6/7 card hands, so I feel this is restriction disguised as a mulligan. I think you could modify it to be better, but I am not sure how... Maybe draw 7, compare two 7 card hands, and the one you keep loses a random card? Would be better than paris, and you could keep repeating it (see 3 hands, discard 2 cards from the kept hand, etc.)

    That might be too much freedom however, anyone care to number crunch it?
    Xenavire, proud guild leader for The Lions Share.
    http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...erlinsmall.png

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