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Thread: Not sure if a bug - terribad card draws on every game

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
    I would be trivially easy for such a bug to exist. Just like you could have a bugged dice roller that always came up wither '2' or '12'. You seem to think if the average is correct then the distribution must also be correct, or that any errors only happen on one of two extremes.

    I'm not saying the shuffler is broken, but your rational for it being fine is completely wrong, as anyone with any coding experience can tell you.
    I have been working as a developer for 6 years and am currently working in the gaming industry.

    A deck is simply an arbitrary list of cards. The shuffler is simply a function that randomises the order of these elements within the list. Please explain how a bug would cause a skewed number of a particular type of card (resources), of which the shuffler has no knowledge of, to end up in the player's hand. And also explain how if this "bug" existed the Hex engineer couldn't find skewed results in millions of tests.

  2. #22
    CZE has run millions of trials and is 100% convinced that it is entirely random. They've posted an article on it. We have community generated data that supports the same conclusion. Why are we still discussing this?
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  3. #23
    Not one person mentioned mana curve. I guess either it's not relevant enough or slightly off topic. Not to insult anyone's intelligence of course but it's absolutely critical.

    For the most part, I get good hands. Let's say 7/10. Either I'm "decent" at deck building or EXTREMELY LUCKY (it might honestly be this).

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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Ali3nSan View Post
    I stopped playing ai in 830 because I just drew shards every turn after I got my hand. Deck works fine against humans. Tried 3x and had same result 3x where I just got shards It did feel like it was a bug but couldn't be sure. I even used shard of fate to reshuffle deck mid game and still just got shards...

    II'll check ai again today with new patch.
    I almost exclusively play against the AI and while I get bad hands and bad draws sometimes I don't get it enough for it to be anything more than random chance or a badly built deck.
    Amatyr, Grand King + Collector

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Marsden View Post
    I almost exclusively play against the AI and while I get bad hands and bad draws sometimes I don't get it enough for it to be anything more than random chance or a badly built deck.
    I take it you're really excited for PvE then...whenever that happens.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by joseph5185 View Post
    I take it you're really excited for PvE then...whenever that happens.
    Absolutely! I'm going to try to do some drafting (since I have 1/week for free) once Beta starts, but it's the PvE I'm really looking forward to.
    Amatyr, Grand King + Collector

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Werlix View Post
    I have been working as a developer for 6 years and am currently working in the gaming industry.

    A deck is simply an arbitrary list of cards. The shuffler is simply a function that randomises the order of these elements within the list. Please explain how a bug would cause a skewed number of a particular type of card (resources), of which the shuffler has no knowledge of
    Again, this is TRIVIALLY easy.

    You start with a sorted list of cards, with all the resources clumped together. You then use a randomizer to generate an unsorted 'random' list. If your randomizer is not correctly generating the right seed values, it could very easily lead to randomizing between one of two general outcomes, both of which are insufficiently randomzied, but in different ways. You understand how seed values and computerized RNG works, right? Improper seeding can cause almost any conceivable errors in randomizing.

    In general any time someone says 'there's no way a bug could...' they are incorrect.

    Let's apply this to real world shuffling. Suppose you give me a sorted deck to shuffle. I don't shuffle it at all. I simply either cut the deck or not. If I do cut the deck, you draw all resources. If I don't cut the deck, you draw no resources.

    Would anyone claim that the fact sometimes I give you resources and sometimes I don't indicates I am properly shuffling the deck?

    That said, I've seen no evidence that HEX's shuffler is broken. Humans have negative confirmation bias and a few examples of poor draws will carry outsize weight in our minds. Unless you are meticulously and accurately recording every deal for scores of games, there's no room to say the shuffler is broken. Any such record I've seen has indicated that it is operating well within accepted parameters of randomness.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
    If your randomizer is not correctly generating the right seed values
    Yes of course if the random number generator isn't randomising properly this could happen. When you said bug I assumed you meant an error in the Hex code (not a problem with the randomisation library used). We already know the randomiser is solid from the Hex engineer's report (unless we don't believe him).

    My point was that if the randomiser is proven to be truly random (enough for our purposes at least) then we can be sure there is no issue with distribution of resources throughout the deck.

  9. #29
    I think I like to agree or confirm vs. argue most of the time.

    The randomizer seems fine for me. I draw completely different hands and my deck plays out completely differently. That's ok... it's designed to. Aren't all decks? =P

    Anyways, yea... there's definitely a "much longer than necessary" thread somewhere on this for sure and i really like the public release that HEX was nice enough to provide.
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