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Thread: Replicators Gambit and a troop with 0 or less health - enter play triggers

  1. #11
    My experience has been that even a troop who is "dead on arrival" will trigger a single "enters play" ability. Example: have Shadowgrove Witch hit a troop, then cast that troop anyway (Moon'ariu Sensei is a good test card). You will still get to draw a card. Or use Venomscorn's champion ability to kill a Corpse Fly, then bring it back onto your own board with Uruunaz. Your opponent will have to discard a card from Corpse Fly, even though it dies right away.

    However, when you add a second "comes into play" trigger onto a troop that is DOA, the 2nd one doesn't trigger (exactly as I've been describing in my previous posts). Easiest way to replicate this is to combine Moon'ariu Sensei with Dream Dance (so it gets a new trigger after its built in one that says "when this troop enters play, draw a card, then discard a card." Get your opponent to get the Sensei's defense to zero by whatever means, then get it back into play. You will draw one card from its built-in ability, then the state-based check will happen, and it will go to the graveyard. Its second draw/discard ability will not trigger.

    This supports my statement that the triggers are not using the chain in the traditional sense, and that there is a state-based check between each one. If they were using the chain, not only would both effects trigger, but it would also be LIFO, so you would actually get the added draw then discard effect rather than the troop's normal draw effect.

    I have done this with several different combinations of troops and abilities, it is not limited to just Buccaneer / Replicator. It is clearly how the engine is designed, rather than a single case bug.
    --ossuary

    "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none."
    - Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well

  2. #12
    Actually a single enter play ability will activate so if the card has multiple enter play abilities is when there is an issue Colin so it's actually gives the impression it is miss coded because either no enter play abilities should trigger or all of them should.

    Either way really works but having a single one trigger just makes no sense at all other then from a coding standpoint

    Oss your focusing on how the game is working currently, that does not mean it is working as intended. I can't for the life of me think how a hard copy game with a written rule book would have a rule that says only one enter battle ability triggers when a dead drop is played. The fact that it is coded that way does not mean it should be working that way.
    Last edited by zadies; 05-26-2014 at 06:20 AM.

  3. #13
    But you can't compare this to a paper game, zadies, because a paper game can't add new text to a card. That whole system is designed around only a single "enters play" ability ever being on a card.

    Like I said, in order for the programming and game engine to function properly, there has to be a state-based check after each trigger resolves before it moves on to the next one. Now, I could see there being merit in the argument that a troop should have a state-based check BEFORE it triggers anything after you cast it (i.e. no triggers resolve at all because it dies instantly), and if CZE decides to change the game engine to do that, that would still be logical and functional. But that's not how it works.

    Imagine it this way, instead, because I think people may be getting hung up on the idea that the troop is 0/0 when you cast it. What if you had a troop that was listed as a 1/1, but had an ability that said "when this troop enters play, it gets permanent -1/-1." And you have modified this troop with Dream Dance, so that when it comes into play, you draw and then discard a card. Here's how it would work:

    1) You cast the troop.
    2) The troop enters play.
    3) First ability resolves. It's now 0/0.
    4) State-based check: the troop is found to be dead - it goes to the graveyard, preventing any further "enters play" triggers from firing, because it is no longer in play.

    If the "enters play" abilities used the chain, it would be a different scenario, because then they would all already be queued or initiated, so they would all resolve. But they don't. They go one at a time. If you Dream Dance a Buccaneer, it doesn't put the draw/discard action on the chain when you cast it; that effect doesn't occur until you finish resolving the first ability (to unsummon a troop). That effect resolves, THEN you draw and discard a card. The draw/discard never shows up on the chain at all. If it was using the chain and LIFO, you'd actually draw/discard before choosing which troop to unsummon.

    I totally get what you guys are saying that it can be a bit confusing to a new player, but it's completely logical and functional based on how the game engine is written. Again, if CZE changes it, I would expect them to add a state-based check BEFORE enters play triggers start to resolve - but barring that, you will always be able to get one (and only one) enters play trigger even from a DOA troop.
    --ossuary

    "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none."
    - Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well

  4. #14
    Oss your arguing from the perspective of how it's coded... my argument is that it is coded wrong.

    If your trying to convince someone that it is coded correctly you can't rely on the actual code to explain it.

    It would be just as easy to do the state based are you alive check after a check to see if all enter play abilities activated.

    If one enter play abilities activate all of them should. It shouldn't just be a single one is what we are saying.

  5. #15
    I do think someone chipping in here officially would clear this up beyond a doubt. Any takers?
    Xenavire, proud guild leader for The Lions Share.
    http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...erlinsmall.png

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by zadies View Post
    Oss your arguing from the perspective of how it's coded... my argument is that it is coded wrong.

    If your trying to convince someone that it is coded correctly you can't rely on the actual code to explain it.

    It would be just as easy to do the state based are you alive check after a check to see if all enter play abilities activated.

    If one enter play abilities activate all of them should. It shouldn't just be a single one is what we are saying.
    OK, let me try another angle, then.

    When alpha FIRST launched, DOA troops did not trigger their abilities when they died. My first day playing, I tried to cast a Moon'ariu Sensei that had been Shadowgrove Witched, figuring I would at least get the drawn card out of it. I didn't. It went straight to the graveyard with no effect.

    It was only about a month or two later that they changed it to the current system, where you get one trigger, but not more. That means it USED to be bugged, and they changed it to how they want it to work, how it is supposed to work, how it was meant to work in the first place.

    Does that help any?
    --ossuary

    "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none."
    - Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ossuary View Post
    OK, let me try another angle, then.

    When alpha FIRST launched, DOA troops did not trigger their abilities when they died. My first day playing, I tried to cast a Moon'ariu Sensei that had been Shadowgrove Witched, figuring I would at least get the drawn card out of it. I didn't. It went straight to the graveyard with no effect.

    It was only about a month or two later that they changed it to the current system, where you get one trigger, but not more. That means it USED to be bugged, and they changed it to how they want it to work, how it is supposed to work, how it was meant to work in the first place.

    Does that help any?
    They might have overlooked the interaction, Oss. I agree that the evidence does side with you, but it isn't fullproof.
    Xenavire, proud guild leader for The Lions Share.
    http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...erlinsmall.png

  8. #18
    Replicator's Gambit didn't even work at the start of Alpha, though, and Dream Dance certainly wasn't in. Triggered abilities also went on the stack at that point. Just because they fixed one bug with ETB effects doesn't preclude them from still being bugged.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by SacrificialToast View Post
    Just because they fixed one bug with ETB effects doesn't preclude them from still being bugged.
    ^this

    i could care a less about this from a programming standpoint. i want the functionality of the cards printed text to work as intended.

  10. #20
    Lol it makes absolutely zero sense to trigger one etb effect and not more. Occam's razor tells me this is just a bug in the code. Again, it would be nice if they would give us a rule book or at least comment here, but I seriously doubt it's working as intended. I mean if you guys could give a real reason why it should work how it is currently, I'm all ears.
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