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Thread: Replicators Gambit and a troop with 0 or less health - enter play triggers

  1. #21
    Ossuarys theory is a real reason that does make sense, on the basis that all the triggers would have to be checked in order, and that the death of a troop would interrupt them.

    It isn't a crazy assessment, and I understand where he is coming from. But it isn't the intuitive answer, nor is it guaranteed to be the right one. If CZE refuses to respond, we should default to assuming Oss is right until we hear otherwise (but really, we should get an official answer on this one, because there are multiple ways to reach this outcome, making it common enough to be a problem.)
    Xenavire, proud guild leader for The Lions Share.
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  2. #22

  3. #23
    I think he is hoping if the thread gets long enough that someone official will post.

    Tbh the people that coded the correction given they aren't the people designing the cards could just have forgotten that it was possible to have multiple enter play effects on a single card when they coded the iniral fix.

  4. #24
    Dbl post
    Last edited by zadies; 05-26-2014 at 04:03 PM. Reason: dbl post

  5. #25
    I certainly agree that from a game design point of view, it makes no sense to have some effects trigger and some not trigger, when they trigger at the same time, though I understand that you can't have events that trigger simultaneously with no priority from a coding perspective.
    IGN: Fensale

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinfoil View Post
    I certainly agree that from a game design point of view, it makes no sense to have some effects trigger and some not trigger, when they trigger at the same time, though I understand that you can't have events that trigger simultaneously with no priority from a coding perspective.
    You actually can do this and I doubt it would be at all difficult.
    Read all about Hex straight from the pros at HexTCGPro.com!
    Stream: www.twitch.tv/Disordia

  7. #27
    No, you can't (or rather, shouldn't), because it could very easily cause a logic loop. Each event has to be handled individually - you cannot process multiple events all at the same time. It simply isn't feasible, logical, or sensical to run a system this way, because of the potential conflicts it could create. That's the whole reason the chain exists in the first place.

    Even if you take death out of the equation, you shouldn't be processing multiple triggers at once.

    Here's a fun card:

    Backdraft - 4(RR)
    Quick Action
    Deal 3 damage to all troops in play.
    Deal 1 damage to you for each troop in play.

    With your system, this card would never really be possible, because you would just kill yourself with it trying to wipe out an army. With a properly built system, like the one we actually have, this card wipes out the army, but penalizes you for every troop you didn't kill. Fun, no?
    --ossuary

    "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none."
    - Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well

  8. #28
    Again you can't seem to differentiate between a triggering an ability and resolving said ability. There's no issue with one event triggering multiple triggers. It's a pretty common occurrence in games that use stacks or chains or queues or heaps or however you want to call them.They'll all go into the chain, then they can be resolved individually.
    Read all about Hex straight from the pros at HexTCGPro.com!
    Stream: www.twitch.tv/Disordia

  9. #29
    OK, I know what you're saying, but you're still fundamentally missing the main point. The developers clearly intend for multiple triggers to resolve individually, so that any chain reactions that occur are based on the developing board position as each resolves. They don't WANT to add them all to the chain at the same time based on the current board state when the process starts, or that's what they would have done. They intend for each effect to resolve fully before the next one grabs any variables based on the new board state, and then resolve each trigger one by one based on that.

    It doesn't really matter if you think it's possible to resolve them all simultaneously or not, because that's not how it works. This issue got clouded a little bit because of the whole DOA troop thing, but the fact remains that when multiple enters play triggers are created by a single troop or spell or event, each one resolves one by one, they don't all resolve simultaneously, and they don't all use the original board state from when the event first created them - each trigger resolves, one by one, doing a state-based check in between to update any variables.

    You can see this behavior pretty easily if you combine Replicator's Gambit + Sword Trainer. If it worked the way you're saying it should, all 7 Sword Trainers would hit the board at the same time, and simultaneously check each others' power, giving +12/+0 to each other, and you'd end up with 7 identical 14/2 Sword Trainers. But that's NOT what happens. Each one's trigger resolves one by one, seeing each of the previous Sword Trainers already on the board, resulting in a 2/2, 4/2, 6/2, 8/2, 10/2, 12/2, and 14/2 Sword Trainer. This is proof of exactly how the trigger system works. Any claim to the contrary is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you like it or not, it's just how it works.
    --ossuary

    "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none."
    - Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by ossuary View Post
    Backdraft - 4(RR)
    Quick Action
    Deal 3 damage to all troops in play.
    Deal 1 damage to you for each troop in play.

    With your system, this card would never really be possible, because you would just kill yourself with it trying to wipe out an army. With a properly built system, like the one we actually have, this card wipes out the army, but penalizes you for every troop you didn't kill. Fun, no?
    Hey Oss,
    I have to say, that is a pretty good example. However, you are comparing apples to oranges.
    Effects that deal damage should be following that logical stop. Where the first effect resolves, checks game-state, and then the second line resolves.
    This can basically be summed up as an If, Then statement

    However, Entering Play triggers on a single entity should not be If, Then statements. They should be If, And, Then statements. The "And" being the second, third, fourth, etc. enters play trigger. The "Then" being the troops ability to stay in play.

    (I have very minimal programming knowledge, but I do a lot of excel work - I am trying to use this as an example, even if it may be off, to argue the "Enters play" mechanic as it is intended, not as it is intended through current game programming to avoid logic loops)

    (Edit: Also I think damage based checks always happen to the player not on the play first. For example, if a spell or ability did a damage to both champions that you cast, and would kill both of you, the damage will result first on your opponent, and you would end up with the win.)
    Last edited by nicosharp; 05-27-2014 at 11:42 AM.

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