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Thread: Blood Cauldron Ritualist bug

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeevus View Post
    Its neither a revert nor a transform. It's nothing more but altering the atk and def values to a set amount. You described a transform effect, like i described in my point above. But thats not what the card does. At least in my opinion. But i feel im pretty much alone here ;p
    You're not alone on that. I pointed out the difference between transform and the Ritualist's ability in my post. If, for instance, you activated a Ritualist and then played Angelic Ascension on it it would be a 5/5 angel with flight until the end of the turn, and would be a 4/4 angel with flight thereafter. Apply transformations first, then set values, and then plus or minus modifications. (According to the rules of another game).
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  2. #12
    Gigantisaur
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    Unfortunately, there are no other 'X becomes Y' cards that we can point to and say 'this is how it's supposed to behave, and in Ritualist it is behaving another way.'

    Trust me, I get it - you can go through my post history and see about a hundred posts debating semantics on cards.

    You can think about buffs/debuffs two ways, neither is incorrect.
    Option A: A 1/1 ritualist gains a +1/1 buff; it is now a 2/2 troop.
    Option B: A 1/1 ritualist gains a +1/1 buff; it is now a 1/1 troop with a +1/1
    If troop A 'becomes 5/5', then it would ultimately be a 5/5 troop
    If troop B 'becomes 5/5,' then it would ultimately you'd have a 5/5 troop with a +1/1, or 6/6 total
    In 99% of cases, its irrelevant how the game interprets this interaction, but with ritualist, we can see it uses approach B, and that modifiers are all distinct conditions that operate independently of each other. A card doesn't lose atk and then get have attack set to 5. Both happen seemingly at once.

    If the game did it by Option A, it would also be technically correct according to the wording. But without something to compare it to, you can't say one or the other is wrong.

    Interesting aside: We should get more clarity in Set 2, with Arborean Rootfather (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/car...Rootfather.jpg)
    Since its stats are halved upon death, it should face a similar situation as Ritualist. It should, if consistent with Ritualist, drop down to 4/4 upon death but all buffs still apply at full strength. For example: a 12/12 Rootfather would die and become a 8/8 Rootfather (from 8/8 with +4/4 to 4/4 with +4/4) rather than 6/6 (12/12 down to 6/6)
    Last edited by MatWith1T; 10-21-2014 at 01:27 PM.

  3. #13
    Working as intended.

    His base 1/1 becomes a 5/5. Any modifiers stay on to work. So if +1/+1 Then after sacrifice it is a 6/6.
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  4. #14
    This card behaves exactly like every other transformation in the game. Become can mean transform in English. The caterpillar became a butterfly.

    So templating issue seems more likely than a new whole effect.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tazelbain View Post
    This card behaves exactly like every other transformation in the game. Become can mean transform in English. The caterpillar became a butterfly.

    So templating issue seems more likely than a new whole effect.
    Why do i have to repeatr myself everytime. Where exactly in the effect text you see the word "transform" ? Every card that transforms, does correctly. But i can't find the wording on Blood Cauldron Ritualist that states a trnasformation. Especially in TCG's you can't just say: "It's the same", simply because it is not. If it was, the wording would be very close to what i posted in an ealrier post.

    Though i have to say i actually like the activity on these tricky topics.
    Last edited by Jeevus; 10-21-2014 at 03:20 PM.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeevus View Post
    Why do i have to repeatr myself everytime. Where exactly in the effect text you see the word "transform" ? Every card that transforms, does correctly. But i can't find the wording on Blood Cauldron Ritualist that states a trnasformation. Especially in TCG's you can't just say: "It's the same", simply because it is not. If it was, the wording would be very close to what i posted in an ealrier post.

    Though i have to say i actually like the activity on these tricky topics.
    Because he becomes a 5/5 troop. That is a "transform". So he is now a 5/5.

    Since it does not say "Revert and then transform" like some cards do, it can be assumed that no reversion happens thus any permanent modifiers are still on the card when it transforms to a 5/5.

    Since he has a permanent modifier of +1/+1 this means he is a 6/6.

    What you are missing is one of the key words in Hex game play. "Revert". That is the whole reason why he keeps the +1/+1 after the transform. It is never removed/reverted.

    Also since it is saying a base attack/defense. That means the base of the card. Not any modifiers. That creature "base" becomes 5/5. Thus any nonreverted affects still are in effect.
    Hex is a MMO-TCG
    *** There is 3 very important letters in this game's genre.
    Hex - Collector Tier Kickstarter Backer
    In-Game name: Ashmander

  7. #17
    I did an experiment in game.

    I cast Polymorph: Dingler on the Ritualist both before and after the resolution of the Ritualist's ability. Casting Polymorph on a 5/5 Ritualist resulted in a 0/1 Dingler. And Casting it with Ritualist's ability on the stack resulted in a 5/5 Dingler (that became 0/1 after the turn was over).

    So it seems that the Ritualist's ability does operate on the same layer as Transform. Since it's using the most recent timestamp to see which one applies last.

    In response to Diesbudt, I still wouldn't say it is a transform ability (transform is a specific mechanic with specific effects that the Ritualist doesn't have), but it does turn out to be useful to think of it as working like a transform ability.
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  8. #18
    Sensei of the Wounded Petal
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scammanator View Post
    In response to Diesbudt, I still wouldn't say it is a transform ability (transform is a specific mechanic with specific effects that the Ritualist doesn't have), but it does turn out to be useful to think of it as working like a transform ability.
    It is Transform as in the meaning of the English word.

    However it is not transform as in the terms of a Hex: Shards of Fate Mechanic...

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Scammanator View Post
    I did an experiment in game.

    I cast Polymorph: Dingler on the Ritualist both before and after the resolution of the Ritualist's ability. Casting Polymorph on a 5/5 Ritualist resulted in a 0/1 Dingler. And Casting it with Ritualist's ability on the stack resulted in a 5/5 Dingler (that became 0/1 after the turn was over).

    So it seems that the Ritualist's ability does operate on the same layer as Transform. Since it's using the most recent timestamp to see which one applies last.

    In response to Diesbudt, I still wouldn't say it is a transform ability (transform is a specific mechanic with specific effects that the Ritualist doesn't have), but it does turn out to be useful to think of it as working like a transform ability.
    Here is even the evidence of the bug. Nice catch. If it would work as a tradional transform, it should be a 4/5, like it is a 6/6 with blood aura. Since it is not -> Bug, if i didn't miss anything.

    This again shows clearly that it is no transform in terms of a hex mechanic, to pick up S117's words. It's a replacement effect (not 100% sure if that is the correct term tho).
    Last edited by Jeevus; 10-21-2014 at 09:19 PM.

  10. #20
    The Transcended
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    Not a bug. It changes to 5/5 (base) and retains all permanent modifiers to those base stats.

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