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Thread: Dear CZE, In Regards to PvE

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by ossuary View Post
    I genuinely don't understand the concept of people playing a ROLE-playing game and ignoring the roles/story. The narrative is what transforms it from a series of actions into an actual experience worth having.
    I prefer strategy and competition (and collecting/completing things, I'm addicted to those). I like the mechanics of leveling up. That's why I mostly play SRPGs these days and not so much just RPGs. It's why I'm so excited for Hex as a TCGRPG.

    Story is fine and I don't completely ignore it, it's just the last thing I look for in a game. I can get a good story from books, movies, etc. I can't get the gameplay experience from anything other than games. If a game has a good story but the gameplay is nothing special or way too easy, it gets boring really fast and I likely won't even make it through the 10 hour story or whatever. If a game has interesting gameplay and little to no story I'll play it for hundreds/thousands of hours.
    Last edited by Svenn; 02-09-2015 at 08:58 AM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwaer View Post
    The pve/ai has its own rules, it doesn't ever break those. They might be different from player rules, but it's irrelevant as long as the encounter is fun and engaging. They absolutely should hide things from the player if their encounter design deems that is the more fun answer, they should absolutely shuffle things unbeknownst to the player if that is necessary to have a fun encounter, they should absolutely give the AI some information a player wouldn't have if that is what it takes to make a maximal fun product. Best of all, you'll literally never know, or be able to prove if the AI is doing most of those things or not. Even if they say they aren't doing those things, even if the AI promises you himself it isn't... You'll never really know. It's always possible that any number of things are happening in the background a player could never do.


    You probably demand that your DM's absolutely follow the rules, too. That they aren't allowed to break them for narrative purposes, they can't flub die rolls for storytelling reasons (Guess why DM screens exist, to pacify players that feel that way, as the DMs flub their rolls)? C'mon man, hardly any games ever made have the npc's following the same rules of the players. That just doesn't make sense in an MMO-esque environment.
    Well I disagree.

    The beauty of the TCG genera is that they have a ton of freedom to make encounter design work without breaking the core rules.

    In fact the defining characteristic of a TCG is "the card does what it says it does, and the only limits on what can happen are the available set of cards".

    Really if you can't make encounters fun in the huge design space that is, cards, champions, equipment, and cards added to the board at start of play, I don't think adding background cheating is going to help.

    And no, you shouldn't hide things like that from the players. Especially if your goal is to make the encounter a puzzel they have to figure out. The player needs to know that something happened so they can try to figure out how to counter it. They shouldn't have to guess whether or not something is happening that they might need to counter somehow.

    Using a specific examples from Arena (now that I got a chance to play it):

    Eternal Guardian is an excellent example of using the available design space without breaking any rules. It has a champion power which interacts with the existing resource system in a way that could be used for a PvP champion or even a card (it's a design choice that PvP champions don't have passives and don't have powers on that scale, not a rule being broken). That champion power enables a very different deck, that presents unique challenges.

    The impression from all of the Arena encounters I've had (admittedly pretty limited), is that they're all like that (usually to a lesser extent). If the champion were unlocked you could play with the exact same powers in PvP, and balance issues aside, nothing would break or fail to work because you don't have the AI's invisible ability to break certain rules.

    I think the devs should keep going in the veign they appear to be and not veer into making the AI able to break rules, or adding additional layers of complexity (like dungeon passives) without good reason (need to do something that can't be implemented with the existing system).

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Zophie View Post
    I don't play PVE to play a simulation of another player, I go into it expecting unique, epic experiences. What dungeons/raids in other MMOs have you played where the bosses have the same stats/abilities as you? If I want to play a vanilla encounter with no special features and just straight up basic gameplay, I'll go into the Proving Grounds and fight the AI there, or I'll just play PVP. The Arena/Dungeons/Raids do not need to be like PVP. I mean hell, have you seen the PVE cards/equipment? Those alone make the games wildly different than straight up PVP, so I don't know what you expect here.



    Spot on Gwaer, and I totally know what it's like hiding behind that DM screen
    You've completely missed my point.

    AI having unique abilities and presenting challenge a player can't is good. Breaking the rules of the agme to do it is bad.

    It's the difference between dragons having a breath weapon attack (good), and the dragon's claws always scoring critical hits instead of rolling it's attacks against the player's AC (bad).

  4. #64
    Honestly. I think you've missed your own point. And our points. The AI having information a player wouldn't only allows it to better simulate being a player. It's not cheating if it doesn't use that knowledge to auto win every time, and instead uses it for creating a compelling and interesting game, that's a totally separate issue from having abilities that it shouldn't have. For example. Cory's encounter in the arena literally cheats. It plays cards and then doesn't follow the rules of the card and instead does something else. It is exactly what you hate and it was a fan favorite to play against. I guarantee that in the future we will see hidden conditions just like that in other dungeons. And it'll be great.
    ----
    http://i.imgur.com/I1MZpF8.png
    HexEnt is too long to type, They're HXE now.
    I am currently trading my unused GK code for a new Tesla Model S P85D
    Feel free to contact me for where you can have it shipped.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwaer View Post
    Honestly. I think you've missed your own point. And our points. The AI having information a player wouldn't only allows it to better simulate being a player. It's not cheating if it doesn't use that knowledge to auto win every time, and instead uses it for creating a compelling and interesting game, that's a totally separate issue from having abilities that it shouldn't have. For example. Cory's encounter in the arena literally cheats. It plays cards and then doesn't follow the rules of the card and instead does something else. It is exactly what you hate and it was a fan favorite to play against. I guarantee that in the future we will see hidden conditions just like that in other dungeons. And it'll be great.
    I haven't played that encounter so I can only evaluate it on your description. But yes from your description it's bad design and shouldn't be in the game. (you disagree and like it I understand. But my point is it's still in my opinion a terrible precedent to set and more likly to lead to bad gameplay in the long run).

    There's no excuse for a card not doing what it says in a TCG ever. Now, if it is actually that the effect of the card is modified by another effect, like a champion power that transforms the card before it hits the chain or adds/edits it's effects, such that what the card says in hand and what it says when it's effect makes it to the chain are different that may be alright (again the devil is in the details). But the important distinction is: when the effect hits the chain it happens as written.

    If the Champion has an effect that says "This champion cheats" (back end there's a 30% chance that any card played transforms into an AI only "cheater" version of the same card), that could work, as could something like "when this champion plays a card add a random effect to it's text".

    The important difference here is that an effect on the chain that says "deal 2 damage to target champion", will deal 2 damage to a champion. It won't create a Rhinosorous. And while the AI may play a burn from it's hand, and the effect that makes it to the stack ends up being "deal 2 to damage to target champion. Create a Rhincsorous and put it into play", it won't juts add a rhinosorous for no apparent reason (instead it adds that rhinosorous within the rules because it has an effect that caused it).

    And that is important because how the frack you you supposed to play a game when what happens and what the game says is happening aren't related? Haw are you supposed to distinguish between a bug and an encounter where the AI cheats?

    It's also an important design distinction, because ignoring your own rules is dangerous game design wise. Especially when you can get the effect you want within the rules.
    Last edited by Turtlewing; 02-09-2015 at 12:31 PM.

  6. #66
    There seems to be some amount of confusion going on in regards to what "cheating" means, or what the AI is doing.

    Almost all effects will be present for players to see either by a trigger or a flavorful thematic. Imagine the world of the champion that shuffles his deck every turn. We would likely go for something more thematic there with a visual that shows the deck shuffling itself and some sort of pop-up or reminder that tells you "the chaotic mind of this champion is constantly in flux".

    Don't worry too much about things being hidden from you. We spend a lot of time in PvE dealing with player empathy and the user experience. The only time we may hide something is if we believe it is irrelevant and causes more harm than good to the average user (things like speeding up gameplay for an encounter by avoiding priority passes that are irrelevant 99% of the time). We don't plan on keeping any information from you that might be relevant as part of the puzzle solving process unless there is an overwhelmingly good reason for it.
    Last edited by Korangar; 02-09-2015 at 12:49 PM.

  7. #67
    I yield to droo, in the hope that one day I will see a droogan.
    ----
    http://i.imgur.com/I1MZpF8.png
    HexEnt is too long to type, They're HXE now.
    I am currently trading my unused GK code for a new Tesla Model S P85D
    Feel free to contact me for where you can have it shipped.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwaer View Post
    I yield to droo, in the hope that one day I will see a droogan.
    How about a Khal Droogo?

  9. #69

  10. #70
    How about when we get the battle log, we replace all instances of "drew" with "Droo" in the text?

    i.e.

    "Your opponent successfully cast Oracle Song."
    "Your opponent Droo 2 cards."
    --ossuary

    "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none."
    - Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well

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