Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 59
  1. #11
    Well, I gotta back up my claims, so here goes:

    1) Superman is more powerful in single hero, however even then he is outshined clearly by 1 guy, Cyborg. You can only benefit from 1 Kick and once you start loading your deck with them, it's not exactly giving you utility, combo, or presence, just power. He is referred to as Luck Dependent because you need Super Powers to show up and then you need to buy them over your opponent. Now what makes that Luck Dependent and someone like Batman (12) 2 tiers higher than him? Batman (12) can be combo'd with several other Characters to make him more consistent and when that occurs, he's going to be a force of nature as compared to Superman. I'll elaborate further down.

    2) Wildcat is Luck Dependent for the reason of getting a Hero and/or a Villain early game. Granted, there are many of both types to benefit him, so if you combo him with someone for power or more utility, like Indigo-1, he's gonna be great. But you need those card types and you need those Punches. Sure he can have an amazing early game, but that's if he's constantly triggering his ability. Normally he will net you 1 card since you can't get both Hero and Villain early game. Now how does he compared to Starfire who has a higher chance to net 1 free draw every turn early game (Not in Classic due to high volume of 6-7 Super Powers), due to the lower count of Super Powers in the main deck since there are Kicks available. Eventually the dream is to rid yourself of Punches or at least bring the count down so you aren't drawing multiple in a hand, which then makes it even harder to trigger him as maybe that hand with a Punch doesn't have a Hero or Villain since you've flooded your deck with other power cards (Super Strength, Heat Vision, Power Rings, etc.). The basis here is that yes he's powerful, but if you don't get the right cards at the right time, he's a piece of cardboard.

    3) Black Manta... Not in a million years would I pick him without a combo based partner, which is why he is Partner Dependent. Just last night, I picked Batman (12) and Black Manta in Classic. Opened with Nth Metal and Kid Flash straight to the bottom, which meant turn 3 I was able to trigger Batman (12) and use the Doomsday in the Line-Up, then buy said Doomsday. Major swing turn right there. Black Manta is absolutely amazing in helping other Characters, but overall he's not impressive on his own. He can stack the bottom with good cards to use them before shuffling, but only the Line-Up. Now when he's combined with someone who has a combo theme? He's going places and fast. Always remember with Black Manta that to really show his power, he needs someone to back him up, like The Flash does. The Flash doesn't generate much of a bonus, but his true power lies in going first and getting that first view of the Line-Up, 5 cards at his disposal. Black Manta is a combo catalyst, he just needs a combo based Character to hang out with.


    Anyone else have any comments or questions regarding my list, I am more than happy to explain. I play weekly to bi-weekly against friends for dinner tabs (loser buys dinner). So I gotta be meta and good or I end up forking out dough.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by MStreva89 View Post
    1) Superman is more powerful in single hero, however even then he is outshined clearly by 1 guy, Cyborg. You can only benefit from 1 Kick and once you start loading your deck with them, it's not exactly giving you utility, combo, or presence, just power. He is referred to as Luck Dependent because you need Super Powers to show up and then you need to buy them over your opponent. Now what makes that Luck Dependent and someone like Batman (12) 2 tiers higher than him? Batman (12) can be combo'd with several other Characters to make him more consistent and when that occurs, he's going to be a force of nature as compared to Superman. I'll elaborate further down.
    Cyborg is a better super than Superman, for sure. The main utility that Superman has is his option to buy +3 power cards turn 1. That makes his early game amazing. His late game lacks unless you've got super powers in your deck, but even then, so much of this game revolves around your early game that it doesn't necessarily matter. Given that information, Cyborg having the best of Superman's early game while also having late game combo potential with his command draw ability makes him one of the best heroes in the first set if not the best. Possibly the most underrated cards in this game are Kicks. Knowing when to grab one is one of the main differences between a very skilled and a less than very skilled player, so a super hero that can interact with those kicks is a force not to be reckoned with.

    So, just to be clear, I agree with you that Superman CAN be argued to be more luck dependent in a two super hero game, he is very much not that in a single hero game.

  3. #13
    1) Personally, I would never argue Superman over Batman (12). Superman is consistent, but still only slightly above average. Batman (12) is insane, and easily one of the best characters in the game. His ability can be difficult to trigger, but the upside he gains is huge.

    2) Valid I suppose, but it's been pretty consistent in most games I've played. Even if he's only getting one or the other, he's merely a slightly worse Cyborg, plus a lot of Heroes and Villains draw into the other cards you need to complete a set (Hero + Villain + Punch). Also, Starfire is still arguably worse in Forever Evil. Ultra Strength = hooooooooooooooooooosed.

    3) I can see it, but remember, I've only had experience with 1-character games, which is where, as you said, he kinda blows. His upside is that he can have the best turn 3 in the game, but without a partner, he's usually not setting up anything, AND his ability can't store Kicks on the bottom which is a huge downside when compared to someone like Aquaman.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by LRoq617 View Post
    3) I can see it, but remember, I've only had experience with 1-character games, which is where, as you said, he kinda blows. His upside is that he can have the best turn 3 in the game, but without a partner, he's usually not setting up anything, AND his ability can't store Kicks on the bottom which is a huge downside when compared to someone like Aquaman.
    This this this. I can't stress enough the importance of early game kicks. They can give you enough early momentum that you're opponent won't be able to catch up for the whole game. This is why Aquaman is far superior to Black Manta

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by jakecav18 View Post
    This this this. I can't stress enough the importance of early game kicks. They can give you enough early momentum that you're opponent won't be able to catch up for the whole game. This is why Aquaman is far superior to Black Manta
    Well right in my Tier List it shows that Aquaman is a stand-alone Character due to his ability to stack things like Kicks, he's never going to have a bad opener, just not possible. There's no comparison between Aquaman and Black Manta, the issue is when Aquaman is used or banned, then Black Manta steps up to the plate to start setting up those grand slam turns. So no argument of Black Manta compared to Aquaman is necessary.

    However, regarding Superman, you can't factor Kicks as the purpose of his being, doing so is saying that he with the most Kicks is the strongest, which just isn't true. Superman gets +1 per turn if he plays a Kick, that's nothing to brag about. Animal Man nets +2 Power with a Kick, Punch, and something else, not being reliant on flooding with Kicks, but instead can grab power cards from the Line-Up. There's too many good cards in most any set that out weigh buying a Kick. There are 2 reasons to buy Kicks in a 1v1 game:

    1) There is nothing of value on the board.
    2) You don't want to add a new card to the Line-Up by buying a card.

    At the end of the day, each Kick is another Punch, just stronger and worth VP. But in Classic, Heroes Unite, and Teen Titans, which are all combo based games, there is no reason to flood your deck with a card that does not combo. I've had games where my opponent is snatching up Kicks and Super-Villains, keeping the Line-Up stale and making it hard for me to combo, but if I'm setting up a combo, just watch me pull a single swing turn and win the whole game because of it. How to do it?

    Classic: The Riddler + any power boosting play (Man of Steel, Parallax, Clayface, etc.)
    Heroes Unite: Kyle Rayner, World's Mightiest Mortal, Teleportation, Trigon (the last 3 can snag Sciencells or Saint Walkers off the top)
    Forever Evil: Pandora's Box, Pandora, Royal Flush Gang, Shazam!
    Teen Titans: Silent Armor, Teen Titans Go!, Vic Stone (less swing turn, more just high powered turns)
    Any game Character cards: Kid Flash, Shazam!

    Argument is that Superman yes can start a game off strong and do good things, but at the end of the day it's whether or not you can abuse that game's combos that allows you to win a game consistently. Not every game is gonna have a stale Line-Up that allows you to waste turns buying Kicks and that's what Superman needs.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by MStreva89 View Post
    Well right in my Tier List it shows that Aquaman is a stand-alone Character due to his ability to stack things like Kicks, he's never going to have a bad opener, just not possible. There's no comparison between Aquaman and Black Manta, the issue is when Aquaman is used or banned, then Black Manta steps up to the plate to start setting up those grand slam turns. So no argument of Black Manta compared to Aquaman is necessary.

    However, regarding Superman, you can't factor Kicks as the purpose of his being, doing so is saying that he with the most Kicks is the strongest, which just isn't true. Superman gets +1 per turn if he plays a Kick, that's nothing to brag about. Animal Man nets +2 Power with a Kick, Punch, and something else, not being reliant on flooding with Kicks, but instead can grab power cards from the Line-Up. There's too many good cards in most any set that out weigh buying a Kick. There are 2 reasons to buy Kicks in a 1v1 game:

    1) There is nothing of value on the board.
    2) You don't want to add a new card to the Line-Up by buying a card.

    At the end of the day, each Kick is another Punch, just stronger and worth VP. But in Classic, Heroes Unite, and Teen Titans, which are all combo based games, there is no reason to flood your deck with a card that does not combo. I've had games where my opponent is snatching up Kicks and Super-Villains, keeping the Line-Up stale and making it hard for me to combo, but if I'm setting up a combo, just watch me pull a single swing turn and win the whole game because of it. How to do it?

    Classic: The Riddler + any power boosting play (Man of Steel, Parallax, Clayface, etc.)
    Heroes Unite: Kyle Rayner, World's Mightiest Mortal, Teleportation, Trigon (the last 3 can snag Sciencells or Saint Walkers off the top)
    Forever Evil: Pandora's Box, Pandora, Royal Flush Gang, Shazam!
    Teen Titans: Silent Armor, Teen Titans Go!, Vic Stone (less swing turn, more just high powered turns)
    Any game Character cards: Kid Flash, Shazam!

    Argument is that Superman yes can start a game off strong and do good things, but at the end of the day it's whether or not you can abuse that game's combos that allows you to win a game consistently. Not every game is gonna have a stale Line-Up that allows you to waste turns buying Kicks and that's what Superman needs.
    First, by no means does my saying you should buy early kicks with Superman imply that you should flood your deck with kicks throughout the game, because you shouldn't. The point is that you should prefer them over, say a weak +power card with more late game application like the riddler or a lasso of truth at such an early point in the game. By essentially buying early game Doomsdays for 3 cost, your deck has a higher potential of buying the strong 6-7 comboing heavy hitters that show up before the first super-villain is bought are both applicable early game and necessary late game. Superman wants that early start because he knows that he becomes slightly less relevant late game. I'd say 3-4 Kicks are the most you would want before the first Super-Villain is bought, and this also gives you a good chance to be the guy that gets that villain. It's likely, barring a long string of stale line-ups, that you should never have any more than those 3-4 Kicks at the end of the game. They are for getting that strong lead ahead of your opponents early enough that they'll never catch up.

    That was a long first, but second: most heroes depend on the cards in their decks to make combos, not their abilities. Their abilities should structure a playstyle. The cards should drive most of those combos.
    Last edited by jakecav18; 07-24-2015 at 07:25 AM.

  7. #17
    For Arrow, on the surface, I feel like most of them are going to classify as "set dependent," because they're all clearly designed to synergize with this one Crossover pack. It's kind of a letdown after the JSA pack because those cards work well independently, whereas these cards really only interact well with each other.

    I'll give some brief character breakdowns, however...

    Oliver Queen: Probably the best for 2-character given a budding partnership with Harley Quinn, merely because his ability contains the phrase "you may discard a card." He also seems like he would work very well in either Classic or Teen Titans with discard pile interactive equipment like Bat Signal and Lasso of Lightning (Is that what it's called?).

    John Diggle: He actually seems fairly good, though he definitely belongs in the Luck-based category. With Defense (much like Booster Gold or Stargirl), he's pretty crazy, and would be disgusting when partnered with either of them. Other than that, strictly utility, but completely worthless without Defense.

    Sara Lance: Seems like the worst in the set on paper, as she's merely a slightly reworded Black Canary (Crisis). I'm sure there's more to her than that, but she may be a good partner for Wonder Woman depending on how the "under Super Hero to deck/discard pile" interaction works. If it counts as a gain, then it's a legitimate pairing. If not, she's fairly bottom.

    Felicity Smoak: Certifiably bad without Arrow pack cards, and she's difficult to trigger anyway. Could possibly be a great combo with Martian Manhunter, or any other Hero-based character to a smaller extent (Luthor, Hawkman, Saint Walker).

    Roy Harper: Easily the most interesting ability in the set, but it requires further application. He's definitely the character that wants to utilize the "put under" mechanic as a way to pseudo-destroy cards, but probably isn't doing enough without it. Also, the inability to acquire big super powers like Super Strength and Shazam will hurt without the Arrow expansion, so he probably falls in line with Felicity to be committed as set-dependent.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by MStreva89 View Post
    However, regarding Superman, you can't factor Kicks as the purpose of his being, doing so is saying that he with the most Kicks is the strongest, which just isn't true. Superman gets +1 per turn if he plays a Kick, that's nothing to brag about.
    I never implied that whoever has the most kicks is the strongest. That isn't the case. Consider a superman who buys a Kick in his first two turns vs. a player who bought a late-game-application card like the riddler and single draw card. After the shuffle, Superman has the max potential of 8 power on a single turn and also a potential of 5-7 power on TWO DIFFERENT TURNS, where the other player has the potential for a turn of 5 power max. Consider all the times a game-changing 6 or 7 cost card like heat vision or super strength pops up before the first villain is bought. Superman is a super hero with one of the highest potentials of snagging those cards. Along with Cyborg, Aquaman, etc.

    Again, I'm conceding on his decreased utility as a part of a two super hero team and that there are super heroes that are better than him in both team and solo formats (Cyborg tromps him), but you can't ignore his strength in a standard game format and you can't ignore the importance of knowing when to buy a Kick early game and when not to.
    Last edited by jakecav18; 07-24-2015 at 09:14 AM.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by LRoq617 View Post
    For Arrow, on the surface, I feel like most of them are going to classify as "set dependent," because they're all clearly designed to synergize with this one Crossover pack. It's kind of a letdown after the JSA pack because those cards work well independently, whereas these cards really only interact well with each other.

    I'll give some brief character breakdowns, however...

    Oliver Queen: Probably the best for 2-character given a budding partnership with Harley Quinn, merely because his ability contains the phrase "you may discard a card." He also seems like he would work very well in either Classic or Teen Titans with discard pile interactive equipment like Bat Signal and Lasso of Lightning (Is that what it's called?).

    John Diggle: He actually seems fairly good, though he definitely belongs in the Luck-based category. With Defense (much like Booster Gold or Stargirl), he's pretty crazy, and would be disgusting when partnered with either of them. Other than that, strictly utility, but completely worthless without Defense.

    Sara Lance: Seems like the worst in the set on paper, as she's merely a slightly reworded Black Canary (Crisis). I'm sure there's more to her than that, but she may be a good partner for Wonder Woman depending on how the "under Super Hero to deck/discard pile" interaction works. If it counts as a gain, then it's a legitimate pairing. If not, she's fairly bottom.

    Felicity Smoak: Certifiably bad without Arrow pack cards, and she's difficult to trigger anyway. Could possibly be a great combo with Martian Manhunter, or any other Hero-based character to a smaller extent (Luthor, Hawkman, Saint Walker).

    Roy Harper: Easily the most interesting ability in the set, but it requires further application. He's definitely the character that wants to utilize the "put under" mechanic as a way to pseudo-destroy cards, but probably isn't doing enough without it. Also, the inability to acquire big super powers like Super Strength and Shazam will hurt without the Arrow expansion, so he probably falls in line with Felicity to be committed as set-dependent.
    I played one game with this set and it was interesting. I was messing around with the idea of using the under super hero aspect as both a utility to grab cards that I needed when I needed them as well as kind of a second destroy pile that was easier to dump starters into. I'm gonna have to play around with this more, but I don't dislike the set.

    One really useful tool I found was an early game purchase of that new card that allows you to put itself as well as the rest of your hand under your super if played first. Good way to "destroy" four starters in one pop.
    Last edited by jakecav18; 07-24-2015 at 09:19 AM.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by jakecav18 View Post
    I never implied that whoever has the most kicks is the strongest. That isn't the case. Consider a superman who buys a Kick in his first two turns vs. a player who bought a late-game-application card like the riddler and single draw card. After the shuffle, Superman has the max potential of 8 power on a single turn and also a potential of 5-7 power on TWO DIFFERENT TURNS, where the other player has the potential for a turn of 5 power max. Consider all the times a game-changing 6 or 7 cost card like heat vision or super strength pops up before the first villain is bought. Superman is a super hero with one of the highest potentials of snagging those cards. Along with Cyborg, Aquaman, etc.

    Again, I'm conceding on his decreased utility as a part of a two super hero team and that there are super heroes that are better than him in both team and solo formats (Cyborg tromps him), but you can't ignore his strength in a standard game format and you can't ignore the importance of knowing when to buy a Kick early game and when not to.
    in the end it really depend on the situation.

    For me I usually define the capability of a hero depending on the stages in the game (early, mid and end) as well as number of players in play.

    Superman is strong early and could be an advantage of the line up has some good high cost card (6 and above) which most likely superman will be able to buy it in his third turn (assuming he bought 2 kicks, he has a potential to possibly build up to 8 power (2 kicks and 3 punches) not many character can do that. But if the line up sux, that it might not make much of a different. So we could say he can be slightly luck driven.

    Another factor is the amount of players, aside from FE, the amount of super power in the other sets are scarce and in a 1 v 1 game, the line up proceed too slowly to push any other super power card out... Not to mention that most super power card are awesome that any other player would just buy them, who wouldn't buy super strength, shazam! Heat vision?
    But in a 3-5 player game, superman is slightly
    More powerful , as most good cards are quickly bought up by other player, superman still has kicks, the chances of him able to get one of the card he need is also slightly higher as the amount of player increaSes.

    Overall I still like superman... He was the first character I use and won at it just because I manage to get an early super strength thx to my kick. It then kinda snow balled from
    There as I end up buying most supervillian.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •