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Thread: Fix Xarlox

  1. #21
    Xarlox is actually a very good design for a feature that doesn't (quite) exist yet in the game: PvE. Xarlox is not meant to be beaten by a PvP deck. PvP cards have limited power as not to be abused in competitive play. However, once dungeons and raids are out, and we get access to hundreds of new PvE cards, Xarlox will probably feel like a very standard encounter, since you will then have access to a deck that is a lot more powerful than whatever you can currently build with PvP cards.

    I agree with Gwaer in that all the other opponents need to be beefed up rather than Xarlox nerfed, but we'll only truly appreciate that once we have access to much stronger PvE decks (and once the AI can outsmart a hamster).

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Fred View Post
    Xarlox is actually a very good design for a feature that doesn't (quite) exist yet in the game: PvE. Xarlox is not meant to be beaten by a PvP deck. PvP cards have limited power as not to be abused in competitive play. However, once dungeons and raids are out, and we get access to hundreds of new PvE cards, Xarlox will probably feel like a very standard encounter, since you will then have access to a deck that is a lot more powerful than whatever you can currently build with PvP cards.

    I agree with Gwaer in that all the other opponents need to be beefed up rather than Xarlox nerfed, but we'll only truly appreciate that once we have access to much stronger PvE decks (and once the AI can outsmart a hamster).
    Sure that's true but why not tune it down now and back up later? putting cards in and out of AI decks shouldn't take much time for the developers.

    And yes other champions do OP things at times, but not quite as often as xarlox, I think based on the number of posts about this many can agree that xarlox is the leading offender in this mater.

  3. #23
    I'm surprised by the number of people that defend Xarlox. To a degree i can buy some of the excuses thrown around such as that better PVE cards are coming, he will be toned down once ai is improved, etc.. However, I think that overall, leaving Xarlox in the arena as-is is a poor choice by the devs right now, because in its current state, it is only going to lead to the type of frustration (i.e. the "what arbitrary crap!" sort) that will lead to new players abandoning the game before they discover its great PVP elements.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Fred View Post
    Xarlox is actually a very good design for a feature that doesn't (quite) exist yet in the game: PvE. Xarlox is not meant to be beaten by a PvP deck. PvP cards have limited power as not to be abused in competitive play. However, once dungeons and raids are out, and we get access to hundreds of new PvE cards, Xarlox will probably feel like a very standard encounter, since you will then have access to a deck that is a lot more powerful than whatever you can currently build with PvP cards.

    I agree with Gwaer in that all the other opponents need to be beefed up rather than Xarlox nerfed, but we'll only truly appreciate that once we have access to much stronger PvE decks (and once the AI can outsmart a hamster).
    I don't understand why people are confusing the issue. The main problem with Xarlox is that it's such an RNG encounter that skill and deckbuilding have very little to do with winning or losing. Certain people keep saying that all other encounters need to be more like Xarlox, but that's absurd. Why would ANYONE want the AI to just be one big coin toss experience? That will not be good for the game, period.

    Add in the fact that Xarlox has some ridiculously OP cards (Word of Xentoth and Web of Death) and you have a very un-fun experience.

    People want to be challenged, but they want to be challenged in a way that is more skill based than RNG based, so wanting the rest of Arena to "be more like Xarlox" is a very strange design goal.

    The vast majority of players complain about Xarlox being a horribly frustrating experience, so I can't possibly see the designers wanting to add more content of a similar nature just because a tiny minority of hard-core Hex supporters say it's great design. Encounters that are mostly determined by RNG are NOT great design for a game that's supposed to emphasize skill and deckbuilding, no matter how you try to spin it.

    If all I want is an RNG experience, I'll go spin chests.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Brjuntinaar View Post
    I'm surprised by the number of people that defend Xarlox. To a degree i can buy some of the excuses thrown around such as that better PVE cards are coming, he will be toned down once ai is improved, etc.. However, I think that overall, leaving Xarlox in the arena as-is is a poor choice by the devs right now, because in its current state, it is only going to lead to the type of frustration (i.e. the "what arbitrary crap!" sort) that will lead to new players abandoning the game before they discover its great PVP elements.
    I spoke with some of the designers at Gen Con about Xarlox, and they said that the guy that designed him "learned a lot" after releasing him. They basically indicated that they were aware that he isn't fun to play against and they made no indication that Xarlox was the model of all of their future AI encounters. They were even offering to cheat players past him after losing to him once in Arena at the LAN so that players could actually have fun playing instead of pulling their hair out due to RNG stupidity.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see Xarlox changed in some fashion at some point.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koz View Post
    I don't understand why people are confusing the issue. The main problem with Xarlox is that it's such an RNG encounter that skill and deckbuilding have very little to do with winning or losing. Certain people keep saying that all other encounters need to be more like Xarlox, but that's absurd. Why would ANYONE want the AI to just be one big coin toss experience? That will not be good for the game, period.

    Add in the fact that Xarlox has some ridiculously OP cards (Word of Xentoth and Web of Death) and you have a very un-fun experience.

    People want to be challenged, but they want to be challenged in a way that is more skill based than RNG based, so wanting the rest of Arena to "be more like Xarlox" is a very strange design goal.

    The vast majority of players complain about Xarlox being a horribly frustrating experience, so I can't possibly see the designers wanting to add more content of a similar nature just because a tiny minority of hard-core Hex supporters say it's great design. Encounters that are mostly determined by RNG are NOT great design for a game that's supposed to emphasize skill and deckbuilding, no matter how you try to spin it.

    If all I want is an RNG experience, I'll go spin chests.
    that's not true. especially with the new PvE cards (like the slaughtergears) you have less problems... and xarlox is the only real competition against you
    to be honest, i own a lot of cards and i'm able to build nearly every deck... i don't see xarlox as a problem anymore!

    you complain, that you cant win 100% with a starter deck against him? oh, i'm sorry for that...

    for other games (wow for example) you have to grind a long time to beat the hardest encounters... thats how i feel about xarlox

    don't make him weaker, just see him as the hardest encounter and feel good, when you beat him!
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  7. #27
    I'd much rather have a consistent challenge than one that varies between nonexistent and nearly impossible. Xarlox's passive puts him in the latter category because of its capability for extreme fluctuation. It's not unique in its design (see Avenging Angel, Seaweed Behemoth, Princess Cory and Nelebrin Skirmisher for similarly dramatic potential), but it's much more noticeable because it's a more powerful effect and occurs more frequently.

    The problem with these mechanics is their inconsistency, not their power level. There exists a range of difficulty for any game in which it's a fun and interesting challenge to play; if you go below that it becomes boring, above that it becomes frustrating. It doesn't matter that we're going to get more powerful PVE decks, because those decks are only going to be challenged the small fraction of the time that Xarlox gets lucky but not lucky enough to guarantee a win. The nature of a card game and the resource system already provide a large degree of inconsistency from game to game; we don't need to throw in more fundamentally inconsistent abilities on top of that.

    Playing War Bot with a non-artifact deck is a much better template for difficulty, I feel. He is difficult, but his abilities are fairly reliable and can be played around instead of just being randomly screwed over by RNG. (The fact that he becomes a joke against artifact decks is another issue which is partly solved by mercenaries.)

    For Xarlox, one approach that could help would be to set the Terrorantulas up so that there would be one guaranteed in each third of your deck. You still don't know when they're coming out, but you'd have far fewer games in which the Terrorantulas never appeared or all appear early on.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeijou View Post
    that's not true. especially with the new PvE cards (like the slaughtergears) you have less problems... and xarlox is the only real competition against you
    Many encounters can beat you with the right hand.

    Several other encounters are reliably difficult, depending on deck: war bot, nelebrin scout, paladin, etc.

  9. #29
    i think it is more fun to have a hard encounter that beats you often, and when you finally beat it you feel actually good about it.
    i get it is annoying if you just want to farm arena for the gold, but if that is teh case, just play one of the many strong decks that are already public.

    if you just want to steamroll arena, do Tier1 over and over and over, almost every "fun" deck should do the job there.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Saeijou View Post
    that's not true. especially with the new PvE cards (like the slaughtergears) you have less problems... and xarlox is the only real competition against you
    to be honest, i own a lot of cards and i'm able to build nearly every deck... i don't see xarlox as a problem anymore!
    Yeah, most of us can beat him, but you're missing the point in your rush to pat yourself on the back. Beating Xarlox isn't about skill, it's about RNG.

    you complain, that you cant win 100% with a starter deck against him? oh, i'm sorry for that...
    Yeah...that's what I said. Please try to address the points I actually make, not the ones you make up.

    for other games (wow for example) you have to grind a long time to beat the hardest encounters... thats how i feel about xarlox
    Except those tough encounters that you have to grind out in WoW drop appropriate rewards. Xarlox drops garbage. Try again please.

    don't make him weaker, just see him as the hardest encounter and feel good, when you beat him!
    For the last time (I hope), most people aren't asking for Xarlox to be EASIER, they are asking for him to be less RNG orientated. Sorry some people are having trouble getting the difference.

    That's cool though that you advocate for a PvE experience that's mostly RNG dependent and one where only the best decks with the best cards can compete for laughable rewards. To each their own I suppose, just sounds like a bad design goal to me (and 90% of the entire player base from the sound of it).

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