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Thread: The fear of nerfing cards is baffling to me

  1. #1

    The fear of nerfing cards is baffling to me

    So it's an ongoing concern in pretty much every online card game I play that people are worried about their cards being nerfed. Common arguments generally revolve around devaluing cards by making them weaker than when a person purchased them. Hex players have the same concerns, made worse by the previous promise not to nerf cards, and instead ban them. Nothing devalues a card more than banning it. In the format that it would be legal in, it's pretty much worthless.

    A lot of people take this viewpoint that banning is the only solution because that is the only real option in physical TCGs, since without reprints with MRP (most recent printing) rules in effect, it's hard to change a cards functionality in paper TCGs. I encourage Hex players to look beyond the constraints of physical TCGs. This is a game that markets and prides itself on being a strictly digital TCG. We can do things that others cant.

    One common argument is that banning a problematic card in a format is better than nerfing it, since the nerf applies to all formats. That's only true in IRL TCGs. We should have the ability to nerf a card within a format while leaving it unchanged in other formats. For example, in set 3 only constructed, Titania's Majesty is obviously a problem. I personally think that it's a problem in 'regular' constructed as well, but for the sake of argument lets pretend its fine outside of set 3 constructed. I could easily see a scenario where in set 3 constructed the card behaved one way, and in a different format it functioned a different way. For set 3 constructed TM could read 'search for any troop with cost 5 or less' for example, while being able to find any troop in other formats.
    IGN Bfox

  2. #2
    It will literally kill the market that this game has cultivated by nerfing a card after they have spoken adnausiam about how they would only ban cards. Also there is no "set 3" constructed in the mind of CZE that was a "fun" format that was made up by the player base. Set 3 was never designed to be played in solitude on a constructed competitive level.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by zadies View Post
    It will literally kill the market that this game has cultivated by nerfing a card after they have spoken adnausiam about how they would only ban cards. Also there is no "set 3" constructed in the mind of CZE that was a "fun" format that was made up by the player base. Set 3 was never designed to be played in solitude on a constructed competitive level.
    The point isn't that there isn't a 'set 3 constructed' format, that was just for the sake of argument. CZE WILL have multiple formats, that's pretty much a given.
    A cards value if it is banned in a format is zero.
    A cards value if it is nerfed in a format is greater than zero.
    The biggest reason for people to advocate banning cards instead of nerfing them is preserving their value in other formats. That's not a relevant argument in a purely digital TCG, because a card can say 2 completely different things in 2 different formats.
    IGN Bfox

  4. #4
    No card value if it is nerfed is 0... in fact the value of all cards becomes 0 because cards can not have a stable value when they can be nerfed at will. What you fail to understand is that the current market value on the PvP cards is defined by the fact that CZE has said they would never nerf a PvP card once it was obtained in a pack. Without the absolute assurance that cards will not be nerfed which people take on faith because CZE has said they would not do it is the only reason cards have any value at all currently.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by zadies View Post
    No card value if it is nerfed is 0... in fact the value of all cards becomes 0 because cards can not have a stable value when they can be nerfed at will. What you fail to understand is that the current market value on the PvP cards is defined by the fact that CZE has said they would never nerf a PvP card once it was obtained in a pack. Without the absolute assurance that cards will not be nerfed which people take on faith because CZE has said they would not do it is the only reason cards have any value at all currently.
    So your counterargument is that all the cards would be worthless if CZE had said they would never nerf cards???
    Last edited by Falaris; 08-17-2015 at 10:04 PM.
    IGN Bfox

  6. #6
    Or maybe 5 different things in 5 formats?

    They only way for things like this to work in HEX - are random effects in PvE, like creating random PvE robots with Reese. That's what fun, not being constantly worried about your cards getting nerf.

    The mark of nerfing card is much lower than mark of banning it. Any TOP cards are potentially to be nerfed, but only true degenerate ones are getting banned.

    Please don't start discussion about current meta, that's not the topic. I'm talking about how meta changes in general. There is need to be a milestone, a single unit, which measures that changes. And it has to be new Sets / (Books for PvE I believe is the word). Yes, sometimes it's a brief stop on the way (bans). Ofc the meta changes during Sets, because players explore it. And that's the thing of beauty.

    If you're going to stick with nerfs it's gonna be a bumpy ride. It's not about digital or paper TCG nature, it's about how our mind works, what people like to see in game. They'd like to explore free, not being forced to head somewhere. They'd like to be assured their cards have value (unless this value for some format's would be temporary blocked, to save their game experience).
    Last edited by Maylick; 08-17-2015 at 10:09 PM.

  7. #7
    Banning a card doesn't kill the value completely because bans are only for specific formats. For example, Subtle Striker is already banned in PvE, but it still retains value, selling for about 100p currently, and is used in PvP decks.

    Altering or nerfing a card, by contrast, would not only kill the value of that card, but also harms the value of all other cards, by overturning Cory's promise during the kickstarter that cards would not be nerfed or altered after they were released. Cards in Hex are *collectibles*, and that means they can't really be mucked with after release without harming the value of the collectible.
    -------
    "Surprise"

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hieronymous View Post
    Banning a card doesn't kill the value completely because bans are only for specific formats.
    So you missed the part of the post that mentioned the way to circumvent what you just typed was to nerf it for just the appropriate format, instead of outright banning it. Leave it untouched in the formats that it would otherwise still be legal/fine in.
    IGN Bfox

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Falaris View Post
    So you missed the part of the post that mentioned the way to circumvent what you just typed was to nerf it for just the appropriate format, instead of outright banning it. Leave it untouched in the formats that it would otherwise still be legal/fine in.
    And then you start confusing new players who see multiple versions of the exact same card. And potentially veterans too. You open up more opportunities to create bugs, and you potentially create combos (or lack therof) in certain formats.

    The whole idea, while neat and innovative, would be a complete train wreck in practice. And you would still potentially ruin the value worse than a ban, because once it is nerfed, people will assume the nerf will spread (which is entirely possible for 'degenerate' cards). A ban on the other hand could be reverted without completely changing decks (can you imagine the fallout of a perfectly workable nerfed card being reverted and totally destroying a current deck?)

    Ban is the only logical way to proceed. Nerfs only hurt the game.
    Xenavire, proud guild leader for The Lions Share.
    http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...erlinsmall.png

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Falaris View Post
    So you missed the part of the post that mentioned the way to circumvent what you just typed was to nerf it for just the appropriate format, instead of outright banning it. Leave it untouched in the formats that it would otherwise still be legal/fine in.
    The issue with that is that such changes are unpredictable. If it's nerfed in one way in one format it might be nerfed in another in a different format and the long term value of the card is a lot harder to figure out.

    Banning is never good either but at least it's binary; either you can use the card or you can't. You don't have to worry about it having six different wordings in different formats. Maybe Titania's gets banned in Constructed Gauntlet but you can at least still use it in PvP. So forth.

    Plus, different wordings in different formats would confuse new players, would create all sorts of issues with listing and reselling (what wording does it display in the AH?), and most importantly, would break Hex's explicit promise that nerfs wouldn't happen, which is a big issue when the entire value of everyone's card collection is based on Hex's promises.

    In a sense it's a self-fulfilling necessity. The biggest reason they need to maintain the no-nerfs policy is that they promised they would. Break that and all the other promises get called into question too (no reissues of alternate art cards, etc.) and everyone's collection value craters.
    -------
    "Surprise"

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