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Thread: Addressing Titania's Majesty

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ossuary View Post
    When a decision like this comes down, the reaction should never be "See? I was right." There are no winners and losers on this issue. The game as a whole is what matters here, [...]
    Absolutely agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ossuary View Post
    [...] and if people feel they can affect change by yelling, or whining, or repetition, the whole community and the quality of the product will both suffer as a result. [...]
    I completely agree that a large portion of the community response - not only for Titania's Majesty, but in many issues - do not include a lot of factors, and carry enormous repetition. This is true of any medium to large forum that caters to a given audience/fanbase/consumer base, in particular of gaming.

    However, I disagree with the sentiment that this sets a bad precedent by 'caving in' to "yelling, or whining, or repetition". Regardless of how it was framed, there existed a part of the established playerbase - as well as newcomers - that was unhappy with certain elements of gameplay that reflected from TM's presence in a constructed setting, such as deckbuilding considerations that players did not feel, in their minds, sufficient enjoyment from undertaking, or games that they did not find fulfilling.

    Regardless of how it was put, recognizing community feedback - whether or not you incorporate it as you think is best - is an extremely important consideration for any developer, and I don't believe the fear of setting a negative precedent is a strong reason to avoid trying to better your product in the eyes of its consumers.

    Beyond that, I trust the developers to make the best decisions they could make at a given time, with the information available to them, now and in the future. No, that doesn't mean they won't make mistakes, but it does mean that when they make them they will try to do better in the future. I do not believe that some precedent is going to trigger some slippery slope that will decrease the game's overall quality (or userbase) in any significant negative manner in the future from this. I was not particularly vocal in regards to Titania's Majesty - I'm happy to see this announcement, but I wouldn't have been actively disappointed had it never come, or taken more time. Regardless of what happened, I believed that Hex Ent had the information, the awareness and the understanding to make the right decision - the banning simply shows a willingness to act if they deem it necessary, which I trust them to do with their own game.
    TL;DR: Man criticizes things. Rambling ensues.

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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Loregoyle View Post
    I have spoken with Titania herself.

    While she understands the decision and why it was made, she is most displeased that people have been speaking ill of a card that bears her name.

    Suffice it to say, she will inflict her grievous wrath on all of you come PVE time.

    Have a lovely day!
    Bring it on ya tubby Elf!

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by ossuary View Post
    We have some supporting evidence that progress was being made - the 2nd place deck in the stress test went 7-1 vs majesty (this is not PROOF, but it is a factor to consider).
    You could also consider that the pilot of that deck (Galwen) said that after sideboarding she was behind against TM...

    I'm too tired to respond any further...maybe tomorrow..
    Last edited by Metronomy; 09-09-2015 at 04:05 PM.

  4. #104
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    I respectfully disagree. I actually think the amount of time this took was correct. I feel like the weekends tournaments were the last chance to see if the metagame could right itself. I'm fine with the ban and I believe adequate thought went into it... Should it have been banned? Probably, but I can't shake the feeling that if I had done more testing or had more time I could have solved it. The larger teams were probably better served by tuning their versions of the deck rather than trying to solve it. I didn't have to but I think it's absence will really open up the meta..... I don't know if that alone warrants a ban. Though I definitely share ossuarys concern about the people celebrating "their" victory ad the behavior it will engender in the future.
    IGN: FinalFantasy

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  5. #105
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    In short, I think it's both justified and natural to support a decision, one way or another, that will enhance your enjoyment of the game or that you believe to provide some long-term benefit to the game, but far more difficult to criticize a decision, if only because we cannot assume that any single one of us, however our experience in game development (or card game history and play) truly knows better than the developers themselves.

    And even if we had cause to believe that - if we didn't trust the development team, why were we investing so much time and money into a product we didn't trust?
    TL;DR: Man criticizes things. Rambling ensues.

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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDog View Post
    I respectfully disagree. I actually think the amount of time this took was correct. I feel like the weekends tournaments were the last chance to see if the metagame could right itself. I'm fine with the ban and I believe adequate thought went into it... Should it have been banned? Probably, but I can't shake the feeling that if I had done more testing or had more time I could have solved it. The larger teams were probably better served by tuning their versions of the deck rather than trying to solve it. I didn't have to but I think it's absence will really open up the meta..... I don't know if that alone warrants a ban. Though I definitely share ossuarys concern about the people celebrating "their" victory ad the behavior it will engender in the future.
    If we had had decklists from ESL and therefore more capability to have iterated on the decks prior to the stress test, I might agree with you that the amount of time has been sufficient to make that call. But because the community was not able to operate at full capacity on the issue, that is the factor that makes me feel like it was too soon (and remember, again, that it took 4 months for Gore Feast to be solved, WITH some full decklists along the way).

    Lacking the normal iteration and improvement capabilities, it was inevitable that a disproportionate percentage of the community would say, "frig it, I'm running TM." Known... easy. Like I said before.
    Last edited by ossuary; 09-09-2015 at 04:12 PM.
    --ossuary

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  7. #107
    Since the decision is finally made...

    My opinion why Titania's Majesty was bad for the Hex.

    1. It shifted game speed to focus around turn 2/3. Opposing decks have to be able to reliably respond with a 1 or 2 cost card to survive an on the play TM deck. This narrowed the meta deck building possibilities to revolved around a limited amount of cards, and in turn narrows viable decks greatly. Better counter cards in the future I find a weak argument as with TM in the format still narrows the focus to 1 and 2 cost cards.

    2. Opposing decks have only 1 chance to counter, and in most situations the opposing player doesn't stabilize or gain an advantage from it. In most cases it is just staying even with the TM deck, and the TM deck is always a threat with a top draw. The "one-hit-KO" threat persists. Unlike other previous top tier decks where those had more chances to interact with (or at least try to).

    3. The existence of a significant chance at a win condition on turn 3 lowered the amount of decisions to be made during a match on average. What I mean is that play with and against a TM deck the amount of decision points is much lower on average than previously set 1/2 meta. I find that there is very little "should I do murder this or that?" or "counter this or save it". Turns 3, 4, maybe 5 it is quite predicable and straight forward how to play with and against TM. There was very little reason to not play TM when you have it, and in turn very little reason to buff that you have a quick action counter.

    4. For all the reasons above... spectating and watching Hex was boring. I was personally afraid that if the 100k tournament and major tournaments were dominated by TM, it makes the game look not so attractive to play or watch. Especially compared to before set 3 release. Before the ban my opinion was that set 1/2 meta tournaments were much more interesting and it made for a better show.
    Last edited by tecnophi; 09-09-2015 at 04:13 PM.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by ossuary View Post
    It took approximately 4 months for people to "break" Gore Feast from the time it first became popular towards the end of set 1 until midway through set 2. During that time, an extremely large percentage of decks in the tournaments we had decklists for (VIP) were GF decks, most of them nearly identical. Sound familiar?
    Many have discussed how TM is not the same situation as Gorefeast. I'll leave that alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by ossuary View Post
    Gwaer, among others, has talked about this at length - how one person iterating on their own design can miss crucial design flaws because they are already stuck down a line of thinking. Having a full community bashing on a deck to make improvements to it is exponentially more powerful than a single user or small group of users iterating on the same deck. This is why I say that running a tournament without decklists is less effective than running it with them. This is why I say there was not sufficient time or effort put into iteration and counter-seeking. I never said it wasn't being done at all, merely that not enough people were doing it and those who were doing it were partially hamstrung by the lack of complete visibility.
    No one disagrees with this. The only disagreement is with your assumption that a silver bullet deck was inevitable. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ossuary View Post
    It is impossible for me to prove a lack of something, but this is the reasoning for my statements. We have some supporting evidence that progress was being made - the 2nd place deck in the stress test went 7-1 vs majesty (this is not PROOF, but it is a factor to consider). There are a number of coyotle control decks that have shown very strongly, and the VIP decklists showed us some truly surprising decks that were just beginning to be honed (Kolokee's phenteo / 5th book deck for example).
    I grant that these might have been the beginnings of top tier decks but that doesn't mean that they were ever going to be truly satisfactory responses to TM. Turn 3 TM wins are bad but my exemplar situation is Periwinkle turn 3 into TM turn 4. There are no right answers here. The only way to counter this is to have hand destruction before turn 4. No deck runs enough hand destruction to have a satisfactory percentage against this situation. Someone can do the math and tell you what the odds are of having either a turn 3 majesty or a turn 3 periwinkle into turn 4 majesty, statistics is not my forte, but whatever it is it's far too significant to be ignored.

  9. #109
    It was a good post, Oss. I definitely would have liked to see more full decklists tournaments. I had high hopes for the sapphire cup, but if the devs think they have enough info, we gotta take them at their word on this. They can't unban it now. The decision is made. Gotta move on.
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  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by gruntwork View Post
    Turn 3 TM wins are bad but my exemplar situation is Periwinkle turn 3 into TM turn 4. There are no right answers here. The only way to counter this is to have hand destruction before turn 4.
    Burn, Meek, Time Ripple, etc. at the end of opponent's turn 3 to eliminate Periwinkle. Counter and resources still available turn 4 to stop Majesty.
    --ossuary

    "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none."
    - Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well

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