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Thread: Duplicitous Duke After Shift

  1. #1

    Duplicitous Duke After Shift

    My opponent was playing a R/D Shift deck with Knightsbane Ovo. My opponent played Duplicitous Duke then Deadeye Slicer next turn, shifting the Duke's power onto Slicer pre-combat. I responded by using Throwback on the Slicer. My opponent DID NOT use Ovo's champion power, or any other reversion effect, after the failed shift. Nonetheless, Duke retained its ability and created a copy of itself at the start of combat (though it no longer had the Shift keyword).

    My understanding is that the Shift keyword is intrinsically tied with the ability being shifted; thus, if shifting fails due to the target no longer being valid when the shift resolves then the ability is lost. My opponent claimed that a shifted effect is not removed from the original troop until the shift effect successfully resolves, thus explaining why Duke still had its ability after the failed shift.

    I can think of four explanations for the above:

    *My opponent is correct and my understanding of Shift is built on a foundation of lies.
    *I am correct and this was a bug.
    *I am correct, but Duplicitous Duke is intended to have unique behavior.
    *I have misrepresented what actually occurred.

    Is anyone willing to provide input? I did not post this is in the bug forum because I don't know that it is one.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Baigan; 12-30-2015 at 09:08 AM.

  2. #2
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    Shift itself is not the basis of the ability being shifted. What happens is that the One-shot is used (ability can no longer be shifted off the duke) but the ability is retained due to having no legal target to be shifted to.
    This is my understanding anyway, and how it plays out.
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  3. #3
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    Previous iterations of Shift had the ability clearly distinct from the Shift it self, it was however changed due to people not knowing wether or not that meant the card had it's ability "twice" and so would keep the ability despite shifting, as well as space constraints iirc (wordier abilities didn't fit twice)?
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jensling View Post
    Shift itself is not the basis of the ability being shifted. What happens is that the One-shot is used (ability can no longer be shifted off the duke) but the ability is retained due to having no legal target to be shifted to.
    This is my understanding anyway, and how it plays out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jensling View Post
    Previous iterations of Shift had the ability clearly distinct from the Shift it self, it was however changed due to people not knowing wether or not that meant the card had it's ability "twice" and so would keep the ability despite shifting, as well as space constraints iirc (wordier abilities didn't fit twice)?
    This is correct, "Shift" is basically its own ability distinct from the ability being shifted. If Shift fails to fire then nothing happens to the ability you attempted to shift.

  5. #5
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    For the record, whilst I understand the mechanics as to why the effect is not actually removed from a card when a shift 'fizzles', some effort should be made to modify this so it is visually identifiable in-game. At least in my experience, in a case that a shift fails, the card text is removed from the originating troop (though keyword symbols, where relevant, may remain), unless that was from a few patches ago and my memory is faulty.

    So Duplicitous Duke would have appeared, in the stated example, to be a vanilla troop.
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  6. #6
    I am certain that within the past week I used Throwback against Psionic Acolyte and it did not have its effect text after the failed shift. My opponent did not subsequently use its exhaust power and I thought that it was just a vanilla 2/5. I guess a visual bug would also explain that, and my opponent just didn't know about it either.

    However, Duke did actually keep the text after the failed shift. So maybe it's inconsistent behavior.

    I swear I regularly play in limited tournies; I'm nearly incredulous that I had such a fundamental misunderstanding about a major mechanic for almost six months.

    Thanks for taking the time to explain!

  7. #7
    All i have to say is that if the shifter is going to retain the ability if the target becomes non legal then removing the shifter should do the same thing.
    Last edited by wolzarg; 12-31-2015 at 07:25 AM.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by wolzarg View Post
    All i have to say is that if the shifter is going to retain the ability if the target becomes non legal then removing the shifter should do the same thing.
    Why? its already on the stack. Wild root dancer still gives 1/1 if you drop a shard and they kill you dancer before it resolves. Lots of cards do this because its on the stack already.

  9. #9
    Because it's a transferrence that logically could require both parties to be in play to transfer. It's like two troops fighting. If one leaves play, the other doesn't get damaged.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by wolzarg View Post
    All i have to say is that if the shifter is going to retain the ability if the target becomes non legal then removing the shifter should do the same thing.
    Except that it is not the same thing. In the case from the OP the target was removed. When this happens in Hex (and most other games) and the ability has no other targets it simply does not happen (i.e. it fizzles).

    In your example, the target of the ability remains. this means that unless the ability in question requires that its origin card remain in play (like effects that require one of your troops to battle one of your opponents troops) the ability will still function as its target remains.
    Last edited by sukebe; 12-31-2015 at 01:36 PM. Reason: replied to the wrong person :-0

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