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Thread: Is it possible to respond to my own card?

  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffHoogland View Post
    Is it possible to "hold priority" and respond to my own card in Hex? If so - how do I do this?

    Had kind of a corner case situation come up where it would have been beneficial to respond to my own card. I had a spell that drew a card on playing (due to winter moon) and also drew a card upon resolution. When I drew a card upon playing my card, I saw the top card of my deck was Brown Fox Scout, so ideally I would have been able to play the Brown Fox Scout from the top of my deck in response to my existing card on the chain, before letting it resolve and drawing more cards.
    OH WOW, Jeff Hoogland really IS playing Hex. <3 MTG buddies were talking the other day how you were streaming Hex. Really hope Hex gets more attention from MTG pros as time goes on.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by noragar View Post
    As explained 7 months ago,

    The normal flow is Player A plays a card.
    Player B has a choice to resolve it or respond to it.
    If Player B responds to it, then Player A has a choice to resolve the new action or respond to it.
    If Player A responds to it, then player B has a choice to resolve the new action or respond to it....

    It's easy to learn, makes logical sense, and is consistent in all cases.
    But it's different if you have triggered abilities of your own, which you CAN respond to. And combined with rules for which triggered abilities go on the stack and which don't, it's not as easy to learn as you make it out to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
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  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwaer View Post
    I disagree with your final summation. It doesn't increase meta game mastery needed in any way. It was a simplification the end. They've said as much. They felt it was too hard of confusing. Not having that option doesn't do what you say. If anything it increases necessary UI knowledge in a small amount of edge cases. You need to know not to respond to some things rather than be prepared for the response someone could do either way. Depth of knowledge is more necessary in the case where you can respond to your own actions, because you need to always be aware of what your opponent could do to modify their actions before they resolve. Now you only need to think about these things when you're going to respond to something. Rather than all the time.
    Knowing not to respond to some things is meta game knowledge (the reason to not respond is that your opponent's deck likely has a responce you want to deny them and that's down to knowing the meta).

    In both cases you need to be aware of the possible interactions. But only in the case where priority denial is a thing does the game of "i want to make you think responding to this is a good idea so i do it in a way you probbaly have a seemingly desirable responce" vs "I know you are trying to get priority so I'll not take my obvious responce" exist.

    UI knowledge is things like: that you can change your automatic stops and what to click on to do it, or (in this case) what key is the "hold priority" button.

    Removing hold priority removes the obscure UI element that was the hold priority button. And it introduced the meta-play of priority denial. It didn't completely remove the interactions that were possible with hold priority though it did make achieving them harder and dependent on your opponent slipping up (or falling to a trap you set).

  4. #144
    The hold priority button could have been no more obscure than space bar f10-f8 etc. The fact that it was obscure isn't an argument against it. It's an argument against obscuring it.
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    HexEnt is too long to type, They're HXE now.
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  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwaer View Post
    The hold priority button could have been no more obscure than space bar f10-f8 etc. The fact that it was obscure isn't an argument against it. It's an argument against obscuring it.
    Which is completely unrelated to my point.
    Which is that the sense in which "skill" was removed was the "skill" of knowing how the UI works, rather than knowing the interactions or making correct choices about when to play effects based on the game and meta-game state. That the scale if that loss was small in addition to it being in an area that isn't that important to keep a high skill ceiling doesn't really make an argument that it should be retained.

  6. #146
    That's entirely not true. Still. Knowing about it wasn't the issue. If someone used it you knew about it from that point forward. Just ask. It was obscure. But that was an interface mistake that is really rectified without removing it by putting it in the buttons menu and letting it be rebound. Now it's no more obscure than any other piece of the game.

    The obscurity of it is irrelevant in the discussion of whether or not it should be removed. But people keep bringing that up. That was a problem. But it could easily be fixed the other way as well.
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    HexEnt is too long to type, They're HXE now.
    I am currently trading my unused GK code for a new Tesla Model S P85D
    Feel free to contact me for where you can have it shipped.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwaer View Post
    That's entirely not true.
    Assuming this refers to the depth of the meta increasing if you need to know what you opponent is likely to do to make the interactions you used to juts hold a button to execute work, I don't see how you can make that claim.

    "I want to play extinction and use my unicorn to protect my troops. Better hold a button" seems clearly more shallow than "I want to play extinction and use my unicorn to protect my troops, better look for any responses my opponent might use to force me to discard my extinction if I activate unicorn first, and if there is one look for a way to bait a response so I can execute the combo".

    In both cases I need to know how the cards interact, but in the former I need to know that I can hold a button (and which one), in the latter I need to examine the board state, make an educated guess about what cards my opponent might be holding, and decide between two competing strategies to execute the combo based on that assessment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwaer View Post
    Still. Knowing about it wasn't the issue. If someone used it you knew about it from that point forward. Just ask. It was obscure. But that was an interface mistake that is really rectified without removing it by putting it in the buttons menu and letting it be rebound. Now it's no more obscure than any other piece of the game.
    Which is again completely irrelevent to whether knowing about it is a matter of skill at making good gameplay decisions or mastery of knowing how the UI works.

    The game will of coarse require some amount of UI mastery to play. But my argument regarding this is in it's entirety is that reducing the amount of UI mastery needed is not equivalent to reducing the amount of mastery of other skills needed. And that the hold priority button only simplified the game in the sense that it reduced UI mastery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwaer View Post
    The obscurity of it is irrelevant in the discussion of whether or not it should be removed. But people keep bringing that up. That was a problem. But it could easily be fixed the other way as well.
    As far as I'm concerned you're the one who keep harping on the obscurity level. My argument is that knowing about a button is a pretty low form of skill in a game like Hex, and it only gets lower if the button isn't obscure.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Turtlewing View Post
    Removing hold priority removes the obscure UI element that was the hold priority button. .
    This line has come up from you and others dozens of times. It's the only portion I'm actively discussing right now. Because it's the most nonsensical. If we can't come to an agreement than its obscurity was entirely solvable and shallow problem that would take nothing to fix by simply adding it to the other UI buttons then I don't see any point in discussing any other aspect. Accusing me of bringing it up while you continue to assert it and then dance around the problem with that assertion makes anything else you say not worth considering. It's a simple issue, that doesn't take pages of text.

    Either you concede that it being obscure is a non-starter and we talk about other stuff or address how it being improperly supported in the client somehow means it should be removed entirely. Honestly phase stops are also improperly supported in the client, should they just remove those too because of their obscurity? New players have no way to know it's a thing, or how to alter them of what that alteration means.
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    http://i.imgur.com/I1MZpF8.png
    HexEnt is too long to type, They're HXE now.
    I am currently trading my unused GK code for a new Tesla Model S P85D
    Feel free to contact me for where you can have it shipped.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwaer View Post
    This line has come up from you and others dozens of times. It's the only portion I'm actively discussing right now. Because it's the most nonsensical. If we can't come to an agreement than its obscurity was entirely solvable and shallow problem that would take nothing to fix by simply adding it to the other UI buttons then I don't see any point in discussing any other aspect. Accusing me of bringing it up while you continue to assert it and then dance around the problem with that assertion makes anything else you say not worth considering. It's a simple issue, that doesn't take pages of text.

    Either you concede that it being obscure is a non-starter and we talk about other stuff or address how it being improperly supported in the client somehow means it should be removed entirely. Honestly phase stops are also improperly supported in the client, should they just remove those too because of their obscurity? New players have no way to know it's a thing, or how to alter them of what that alteration means.
    The difference with phase stops is that if you don't know how to alter them this doesn't impact you negatively since they are all turned on correct? If some of the stops are off by default then I think the argument is sound.
    Hi, my name is Malicus and my will to resist Hex is weak.

  10. #150
    I believe you have to turn many of them on manually. Off the top of my head, the stops for start of turn and swiftstrike damage (and other parts of combat?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
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