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Thread: Primal Dawn - First Light

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqattaq View Post
    by HEXRysu

    Consider the following situation that has come up countless times in Armies of Myth draft. It’s your Wild-Ruby opponent’s second turn and they are attacking you with an Ashwood Soloist and you control a Runeweb Infiltrator. Not an entirely uncommon situation. Normally you’ll happily take the damage, because one damage is far better than losing one of your best spider makers.

    [...]
    Yes, I know I'm very late in noticing, but the last time I read the article I was tunnel-visioning on the spoilers and now I re-read it closely.

    You know, this phrase bothers me quite a lot, especially coming from the lead designer of set 4. If my opponent attacks on turn 2 with Ashwood Soloist whilst I have an Infiltrator and no open resources, there is a distinct possibility I wouldn't block, but if that were the case that has nothing to do with not losing my Infiltrator, but the possibility of a combat trick. If there doesn't appear to be a combat trick (for example, my opponent made the mistake of playing something in main phase 1, or missed their second shard and only has 1 ruby threshold and 2 resources so the only combat trick is Lunge, and if you've missed your second shard it may be far more important to play a troop over a combat trick anyway... or perhaps its game 2 or 3 and I already saw most of my opponent's deck, especially with the help of the milling of an eggs deck, and saw no 2 cost combat tricks of note) then I will almost certainly block, and it seems silly that someone wouldn't (again, assuming you have reason to believe there won't be a combat trick).

    Okay, again, the actual issue is deeper again. Depends on what's in your hand - do you have a Nazhk Webguard, for example? Are you actually a Patriarch Ozin deck, not Zorzym? Do you have two Incubation Webs to deal with threats down the line?

    But the key, vacuum hypothetical situation presented suggested that you obviously wouldn't block, which I completely disagree with. Allowing an Ashwood Soloist to skip a part of the R/W (presumably) player's curve repeatedly will lead to that player generating significant degrees of board advantage which will win the game far faster than a couple of spiderling eggs a turn will. Allowing them to not only play a 3 cost card on their turn 2, but a 4 (or 5 with cressida!) cost card on their turn 3 is hardly worth your infiltrator's 'possible' value, and said possible value does nothing but chump the troops the opponent is bringing out, or dig you a win a LOT slower than their Tempestuous Bladedancer - or even just Emberleaf Wardancer, Rotroot Enchanter or Caribaur Healer - will!

    No, I don't agree with a core strategic assumption made in this article, even selling a card in this article, and I highly doubt it is the statistically or generally better play. A serious overestimation of the value of 2 eggs on your turn 3 compared to allowing your opponent to play a 5 cost card on their turn 3.
    Last edited by Yewstance; 03-23-2016 at 09:28 PM.
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Yewstance View Post
    Yes, I know I'm very late in noticing, but the last time I read the article I was tunnel-visioning on the spoilers and now I re-read it closely.

    You know, this phrase bothers me quite a lot, especially coming from the lead designer of set 4. If my opponent attacks on turn 2 with Ashwood Soloist whilst I have an Infiltrator and no open resources, there is a distinct possibility I wouldn't block, but if that were the case that has nothing to do with not losing my Infiltrator, but the possibility of a combat trick. If there doesn't appear to be a combat trick (for example, my opponent made the mistake of playing something in main phase 1, or missed their second shard and only has 1 ruby threshold and 2 resources so the only combat trick is Lunge, and if you've missed your second shard it may be far more important to play a troop over a combat trick anyway... or perhaps its game 2 or 3 and I already saw most of my opponent's deck, especially with the help of the milling of an eggs deck, and saw no 2 cost combat tricks of note) then I will almost certainly block, and it seems silly that someone wouldn't (again, assuming you have reason to believe there won't be a combat trick).

    Okay, again, the actual issue is deeper again. Depends on what's in your hand - do you have a Nazhk Webguard, for example? Are you actually a Patriarch Ozin deck, not Zorzym? Do you have two Incubation Webs to deal with threats down the line?

    But the key, vacuum hypothetical situation presented suggested that you obviously wouldn't block, which I completely disagree with. Allowing an Ashwood Soloist to skip a part of the R/W (presumably) player's curve repeatedly will lead to that player generating significant degrees of board advantage which will win the game far faster than a couple of spiderling eggs a turn will. Allowing them to not only play a 3 cost card on their turn 2, but a 4 (or 5 with cressida!) cost card on their turn 3 is hardly worth your infiltrator's 'possible' value, and said possible value does nothing but chump the troops the opponent is bringing out, or dig you a win a LOT slower than their Tempestuous Bladedancer - or even just Emberleaf Wardancer, Rotroot Enchanter or Caribaur Healer - will!

    No, I don't agree with a core strategic assumption made in this article, even selling a card in this article, and I highly doubt it is the statistically or generally better play. A serious overestimation of the value of 2 eggs on your turn 3 compared to allowing your opponent to play a 5 cost card on their turn 3.
    I disagree completely, I almost exclusively don't make that block. And most of the streamers I watch, and the people I playtest with, wouldn't make that block either. Those early spiders are key. And I'm almost certainly going to be putting something down Turn 3 that has a high enough DEF that I won't worry about the common combat tricks when blocking the Soloist next turn. Getting 2 or 4 (or 3 or 6 with a Cultivator) spiders from the Infiltrator is an incredibly strong start in most spider decks, even if it means your opponent gets an early Minstrels or +2/+2 Prophecy Coyotle. And, because you're playing against RW, you're not overly concerned by them playing a Flying/Skyguard troop that will stop you.
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  3. #103
    I'm with Ryan/Colin on this one. B/S Spiders has a ton of high defense troops, big troop removal, and eventually chump blocking Spiderlings that can easily help you come back from a quick R/W start (I might play different if it was a Mono R or R/D aggro deck however). In fact it's not unusual for a turn 2/3 drop like Nazhk Webguard or Vilefang Eremite or Hatchery Cultivator to put a stop against whatever R/W puts out there on turn 4/5. Meanwhile Runeweb Infiltrator is likely one of your best win-cons in this match-up so offering it up for exchange with a Ashwood Soloist with them possibly playing combat tricks doesn't seem like a move I'd take too often.

    Also he was simply setting up the spoiler (Ashwood Soloist being the only non-legendary 1 cost Elf in AoM), so I don't feel the criticism is warranted at all.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by hex_colin View Post
    I disagree completely, I almost exclusively don't make that block. And most of the streamers I watch, and the people I playtest with, wouldn't make that block either. Those early spiders are key. And I'm almost certainly going to be putting something down Turn 3 that has a high enough DEF that I won't worry about the common combat tricks when blocking the Soloist next turn. Getting 2 or 4 (or 3 or 6 with a Cultivator) spiders from the Infiltrator is an incredibly strong start in most spider decks, even if it means your opponent gets an early Minstrels or +2/+2 Prophecy Coyotle. And, because you're playing against RW, you're not overly concerned by them playing a Flying/Skyguard troop that will stop you.
    I did state that I'd block if I had reason to believe there was no combat trick. The merry minstrels hardly bothers me since that can't be stopped; an attacking soloist on their turn 2 is 3 resources already. After some more thought on the matter, I'd like to clarify my stance.

    If the opponent is r/w, the chances are in draft that they'll be cressida, urgnock or alyndra, with cressida and alyndra being most common, and ashwood soloist more frequently making the cut in the faster Cressida strategies. If the opponent is playing soloist as an Alyndra player - which I would generally consider a mistake, more so in the 17 card pack format - then yes, I would not block.

    However, against Cressida, I am unwilling to let my opponent ramp into a 5 cost troop on their next turn via the second attack from soloist, assuming I had no vampiric kiss in my hand already to stop that, or an incubation web, cripple or parriphagy prepared.

    So in a lot of cases - notably prepared removal and in anticipation of a trick, but also up against a champion less likely to be able to exploit the soloist's second trigger on turn 3 - I, as the article suggested, would not block. However, I strongly believe there are very compelling reasons to take the trade against a cressida player, significant when the above assumptions are not true (in-hand removal, plausible tricks).

    Ultimately I am of the opinion it is a contextual question, and the decision to block is down to more information and factors left unspecified, which is why I feel it is a poor example.
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  5. #105
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    Blocking the soloist on turn 3 isn't the problem. Letting the opponent play a 1, then 3, then 5 cost troop in that order is a problem. Rotroot Enchanter is a common troop that will prevent your infiltrator from hitting more than once as an example, assuming no incubation webs or throwback from you. Again, I have been stating specifics such as likely or certain lack of tricks from opponent.

    Bootlace did make an excellent point in that infiltrator may be your best bet in this generally poor matchup (especially cressida over alyndra, the decklist more likely to play staggering blasts), another good reason not to block, but again contextual on what your deck and hand includes.

    And setting up the spoiler is a good, and most important, point, but it came across to me as largely overlooking the impact a soloist getting both a turn 2 and 3 attacking trigger may have on a draft game against vennen. Much faster board consequences than eggs will, which is what a player with ashwood soloist and cressida banks on in this matchup, as time eventually favors the vennen players ongoing value.
    Last edited by Yewstance; 03-24-2016 at 05:10 AM.
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  6. #106
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    And out of nowhere, I'm going to do a 180, or something resembling it.

    When the scenario was painted, I immediately jumped into a context where I would have blocked. I feel the most significant assumptions being that I knew there was no combat trick and I did not have something resembling hard removal for the potential turn 3 5 cost card, or a Kiss for soloist. And that my opponent was cressida, as I'd most often see behind soloist.

    More often than not, in a draft with solely the boardstate described, at least one of my assumptions, as per my initial 'But wait, what if..!?' will not be the case. "More often than not". In other words, I would "normally" not block.

    I've put forward the contention that I certainly wouldn't always let a soloist live given the option of trading it this early with an infiltrator, and I stand by that. But I normally wouldn't block, and 'normally' is all the original quote claimed. "Normally you'd take the damage". (Though I'd argue focusing on the damage instead of allowing a soloist to repeat his effect is a mistake in the writing, though necessary to highlight the spoiled card)

    Regardless, having cooled down, I take it back. The scenario is presented, and the answer/assumption/strategy is normally sound, and nothing beyond that was claimed. I apologize for misconstruing the intent.
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