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Thread: Comparing power levels - The power creep thread

  1. #1

    Comparing power levels - The power creep thread

    Alright! We've got a lot of set 4 spoilers. I'm going to go over each of them and compare them to the most similar past card and see how we're doing with power creep. I'm going into this without any prejudgement so you'll see my thoughts as I think them.

    Let's gooooooooooooo.

    Primal Dawn - Make 3 wild troops, put them into your hand, everything in your hand gets +1/+1. Cost 5 or empower for 10.

    The easiest comparison is obviously Born of Flame. Get 3 random ruby troops into play for 7. Born of Flame is harder to cast in terms of both threshold and cost and certainly less flexible since it can't be empowered (though how often are you casting things for 10 anyway). Also I think it's fair to say that on average wild troops are better than ruby. However, given that Born of Flame puts them into play while Primal Dawn you still must cast them they seem to serve somewhat different purposes. Primal Dawn really amounts to a draw spell for wild while Born of Flame is much more an aggro spell (though 7 casting cost aggro isn't very good). I think Primal Dawn is probably a bit more usable just because of the lower casting cost, but neither spell seems amazing. Power creep grade: No problem!

    Madness of the Mountain God -4 for a 4/4 with an anti control ability that empowers.

    Stick with me on this one. To me this compares most closely with a vampire princess. Vampire princess is smaller, more evasive, doesn't empower. But it's a card which does a lot of work and wrecks control decks if it can start stripping actions from their hand. It's faster (though smaller), gives the same life swing (-2 for them, +2 for you vs -4 for them) and is evasive. Both have no protection from removal. Honestly I feel vampire princess is superior most of the time. Power creep grade: No problem!

    Nightsky Prophet
    3 for a 3/2 that prophecies +2/+1 and empowers. (6 for a 6/4 that prophecies +4/+2)

    The empower ability is a bit more relevant here as it's something you'll likely get to in a standard game. This is getting played in some sort of stompy deck since you're using prophecy so let's look at 3 cost wild with an upside. Also we'd like to get something out of the card even if it dies. The best comparison is of course Nightsky Stargazer. 1 more cost, doesn't empower, grants 1 more toughness, has 1 more toughness. I think undoubtedly nightksy prophet is better, but not unreasonable. Power creep grade: Power crept! (but still totally ok)

    Cyclone Rider 3 for a 2/1 flyer which prohecies the next action -2 cost.

    Alright look. It's a corpse fly except a bit easier to cast. What's better, opponent discards a card or next action -2? Probably that depends on what your deck is trying to do but I think those two things offer similar value in a vacuum. Power creep grade: No problem!

    Greenpaw Emancipator - 5 for a 4/3 which gives you 2 2/2s and empowers.

    Royal Falconer gives you 2 2/1 flyers for 4 that are more easily buffed. However, he himself is smaller and doesn't empower. Honestly I think I'd prefer to have the fliers than the bigger body. Power creep grade: No problem!

    Flickering Gobbler - 2 for a 2/2 flying, speed rage 1 suicide bomber.

    This is new! There's really no comparison for this as it's custom built for a certain deck type that doesn't exist yet. But let's see what we can do. Thunderbird is 2 for a 2/1 on the first attack, doesn't die at end of turn and has the same rage. It's obviously a turn +1 damage slower but it also doesn't take any minding after you put it on the board. In a vacuum at least the power creep grade is: No problem!

    Forever's Child - 5 with strict threshold, for a 4/4 lifedrain that turns your life into dudes!

    Da is an Orchin? I don't know if they're cute or terrifying! Anyway, obviously this is built for a certain kind of deck. Let's just look at bodies and then compare abilities. 5 for a 4/4 lifelink. There are two 4 casting cost hard to block lifelink troops in the form of corrupted harvester and vampire king. Like forever's child neither have any defense against the dark arts (removal). In terms of just body + lifelink both are probably better than Forever's Child as both cost less, have the same or similar toughness and only have 1 less power. Looking at abilities we have evasion, evasion and possibility of making 2/2 vampires at the cost of opposing cards or make x/x troops when you gain x life. It's certainly hard to say this is better than vampire king, but you know what, if it was a bit easier to cast I think it'd be only a bit weaker. You certainly can't afford to let it stick around or let it block/hit something and survive. I think it's better than it looks at first glance but still quite fair. Power creep grade is: No problem!

    Angel of Agony - 4 for a 4/3 swiftstrike flyer that opposing troops don't heal.

    So who's vanity card is this and are they single? I joke! Golden Avenger is 5 for a 4/4 swiftstrike which gives you another avenger for cheap when it dies! (if you have a body) which if you ignore the opposing troops don't heal is probably better. Opposing troops don't heal, I feel like this is usually a trap unless we're getting a significant amount more of AoE damage. If I'm going to burn + crackling bolt something I'm probably doing it on one turn anyway. Giving me the option to spread that out over two turns isn't helpful. If I have to block something twice to kill it I'm probably doing that on one turn anyway. Basically it seems to me like this only mitigates the effectiveness of combat tricks (the troop will still die when the combat trick falls off with angel in play if a toughenss buff is keeping it alive) which isn't a huge deal in constructed. This is possibly a useful body in ruby/blood but I don't value the ability that much. Power creep grade is: No problem!

    Chronodaemon - 8 for a 6/6 flyer that doesn't play well with others.

    ok, resolve your 8 casting cost spell and if your opponent can't kill it you win the game. Welcome to every other 8 casting cost spell ever made. It has no protection, no immediate upside (except being alone) it's just another huge guy that if your opponent let's you get there and can't deal with it you win. Power creep grade is: No problem!

    Freak of Nature - 4 for a 2/2 hard to cast that slowly melts your opponent and gets bigger when dead PLUS can come back from the grave.

    Ah yes, the conditionally play for free from crypt card. *does a quick search for graveyard in post so far*. There isn't a good comparison for this yet and the strength of such cards always depends on the support around them. We can say 4 for a 2/2 that slowly melts your opponents dudes is not very good. The question is how often and easily will he come back from the dead. Power creep grade is: No easy comparison.

    Maw of the Hunt - 5 for a 3/3 that is free when an elf hits.

    Wha! FREE?! Free is always good! But if it's not free.... oh then it's bad. Real bad. 5 for a vanilla 3/3 is nothing to smile about. So what else can we get for free? Prince Talysen is 3 for a 3/1 that gets us free stuff. Jankbot is basically the William Wallace of free-dom. Indigo Dreamwalker is 4 for your next card is free (plus a 3/4 flyer body). Angel of Dawn is herself sometimes free, Syyn gets us free stuff, devouring doomspore can be free. Sunsoul phoenix is freeish. But let's look at the conditions. Talysen, has to hit on turn 4, much harder than possibly turn 2. Jankbot has deck restrictions. Indigo dreamwalker you never know what you're getting. Angel of Dawn doesn't have much of a downside but is never free in your opening hand. Devouring doomspore "free" means at the cost of 3 corpses. Syyn costs an arm and a leg. Sunsoul phoenix takes a lot of actions getting played one way or another. The restriction on this basically amounts to, "have more elves than your opponent can stop" which isn't THAT hard if you're going for an early game rush. On the other hand if you DON'T get it out early you've got a pretty dead card. I have trouble saying this is better than Angel of Dawn or Indigo Dreamwalker, but it will open up an interesting new strat hopefully. Power creep grade is: No problem!

    Brood Bounty - Put a spiderling in your opponents deck. Get it back when a spider enters play.

    Pretty bad in a vacuum. Power creep grade is: No problem!

    Oh no my post is too long! Continued in next post.

  2. #2
    Midnight Spiritualist - 5 for a 3/1 and up to 5 1/1 fliers when it dies.

    Ehhhhhhh.... If 5 shard really becomes a thing this is pretty good. I think you're getting pretty decent value at 3 shards actually. This is better than it seems at first glance I think. I'm actually not going to rule on this one.

    Hextricator - a 2/2 for 3 with threshold fixing.

    If Royal Herald wasn't OP than neither is this. Power creep grade is: No problem!

    Death Chant - 3 for a recursion constant.

    It's new! Show me the other chants and I'll tell you how good they are, but usually these things are pretty bad. Power creep grade is: No problem!

    Voice of the Ashwood - 2 for a 1/2 rage 1 gives resources = to damage dealt.

    Swinging on turn 3 that probably must be blocked/killed or you lose half the time right then. The closest comparison to this might be puck. If voice of ashwood is going to ramp you into a fatty than puck is going to be at least half as effective and possibly more effective. Also puck doesn't have to go into the red zone to do his thing. Voice of Ashwood is probably better for a more aggro deck whereas Puck may be better for a more acceleration based deck. Probably thus far this is the largest improvement I see as Voice of the Ashwood really lends some terrifying speed to a ruby deck. The largest problem is it competes with some other very important cards at the 2 slot. Power creep grade is: Power Crept!

    Stormcaller Ancient - 2 for a 2/2 that doubles prophecied cards.

    This is a cerulean mirror knight for prophecy. Cerulean mirror knight is amazing, so amazing it's probably better than this because you don't need to build around prophecy. "But this double ACTIONS TOO Refugee, not just troops!". Ok ok, if you are playing a lot of prophecy this is better. But cerulean mirror knight is still less restrictive and for that reason I believe overall a better card. Power creep grade is: No problem!

    Scion of Gibberish 6 for a 3/3 swiftstrike, maybe kill some non-necrotic dudes.

    Look if some sort of necrotic tribal deck takes off this will be amazing. But come on... Power creep grade is: No problem!


    Xentoth's Malice Spill some blood, make some spiders, spill some spiders, get some blood (and cards!)

    ok so 2 for a constant that makes spiders out of life and cards out of spiders. Pact of pain is 3 for pay 2 life draw a card. It costs one more which sucks, but you also get your card now, not when a spider chooses to show up. Overall I give this one to pact of pain. Power creep grade is: No problem!

    Rune Ear Heirophant - 3 for a 2/2 that grows when you play a troop and a major and minor socket...

    So I'm in wild so I'll put spellshield in the minor socket. Major socket... I don't want a come into play effect cause he's small. I really want him to be hard to block... I guess you can double minor for ruby evasion or flight. But you could also have him make rhinos, draw cards, pump your other dudes when he does hit. Honestly this card is pretty fantastic with a lot of possibilities. I don't think there's another card with it's potential to grow and the protection spellshield brings. Power creep grade is: Power Crept!

    Psionic Flame
    - Pay 1+x+x deal that much damage draw that many cards.

    That's a lot of resources to do not all that much with one shard you're playing not being prone to acceleration. Not a fan. Power creep grade is: No problem!

    Necropolis Bodyguard - 4 for a 6/6 with a 6 point a turn downside.

    This is pretty ok. You're often going to hit yourself in the face for 6 but hopefully you're going to hit your opponent in the face for 6 as well. The tradition for this sort of thing is "get a big scary guy but it kills your own troops too!" and so this is an interesting twist where you can mitigate that downside somewhat by moving it around. I think it's pretty reasonable. Power creep grade is: No problem!

    Stingshot Sniper
    - 3 for a 2/2 flyer that hits something for it's power when it attacks. Empower.

    This guy seems quite good. 3 for a 2/2 flyer is already pretty ok and it's going to clear the way or nuke your opponent for you too? Plus it empowers? Plus it's obviously going in a deck where it will have it's attack power buffed by it's champion? This is another good card in the ruby toolbox. I think it's probably better than existing options. Power creep grade is: Power Crept!


    Overall I think the power of the cards we've seen is very well balanced. Obviously you want to see some improvement in some areas to keep the metagame fresh but you don't want to invalidate all older cards. Looks like the developers are doing a good job walking that line so far (though there are a lot more cards to see!)

  3. #3
    The post is really well written and I can tell the work you have put into it but you have ignored one fact and that's that power creep can't really be labelled to individual cards. Power creep is the average power of a cards going up making players need to buy more of the new sets. Signaler cards being above the normal curve of a deck is fairly common in most tcgs.
    It's also too early to rate the cards in this set until we know the whole set. We don't know what else is in set 4 that will make some seemingly average cards go to high level constructed play and Vice-Versa.

    Also I have no clue why you're calling Stringshot sniper a power creep. It's a flying ruby which fair enough is pretty rare and powerful but 2/2 isn't the best stats. 1 damage to a random target isn't going to impact most games even with the empower effect because not much really dies to it at 3 drop 1 damage and at 6 drop 2 damage not much dies to it by that point. The cards not bad but it's not better than other rare 3 drops we've seen in the past.
    That said you are right about Rune Ear Heirophant. I'm not sure about constructed play but he probably one of the most powerful limited bombs we've seen so far with his growing attack and easy access to spellshield+major gem

  4. #4
    Just as a minor note, Reeplay, the damage it deals is based on its attack, which is base 2. The Stingshot sniper is most likely going to be dealing 2 damage when it attacks. On an evasive body, it's pretty solid. Power creep? I dunno. Cheap red flier seems good to me.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplay View Post
    Also I have no clue why you're calling Stringshot sniper a power creep. It's a flying ruby which fair enough is pretty rare and powerful but 2/2 isn't the best stats. 1 damage to a random target isn't going to impact most games even with the empower effect because not much really dies to it at 3 drop 1 damage and at 6 drop 2 damage not much dies to it by that point. The cards not bad but it's not better than other rare 3 drops we've seen in the past.
    That said you are right about Rune Ear Heirophant. I'm not sure about constructed play but he probably one of the most powerful limited bombs we've seen so far with his growing attack and easy access to spellshield+major gem
    The bee man doesn't do 1 damage to a random target. It does damage equal to it's power to a random target. It will be played in an Urgnock deck so it taps to attack, deals 3 damage to an opposing player or troop (possibly killing the possible blocker) and then deal it's damage to whatever it hits. With a gorefeast it is 4 damage nuke, 4 damage hit, 5 damage nuke, 5 damage hit with evasion.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplay View Post
    Also I have no clue why you're calling Stringshot sniper a power creep. It's a flying ruby which fair enough is pretty rare and powerful but 2/2 isn't the best stats. 1 damage to a random target isn't going to impact most games even with the empower effect because not much really dies to it at 3 drop 1 damage and at 6 drop 2 damage not much dies to it by that point. The cards not bad but it's not better than other rare 3 drops we've seen in the past.
    I agree with you that power creep can't be evaluated yet, but Stringshot Sniper does damage equal to its ATTACK to 1 random opposing champ or troop. Much better than your version.

    EDIT: Ninja'd by 2 different people. XD
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Refugee View Post
    The bee man doesn't do 1 damage to a random target. It does damage equal to it's power to a random target. It will be played in an Urgnock deck so it taps to attack, deals 3 damage to an opposing player or troop (possibly killing the possible blocker) and then deal it's damage to whatever it hits. With a gorefeast it is 4 damage nuke, 4 damage hit, 5 damage nuke, 5 damage hit with evasion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    Just as a minor note, Reeplay, the damage it deals is based on its attack, which is base 2. The Stingshot sniper is most likely going to be dealing 2 damage when it attacks. On an evasive body, it's pretty solid. Power creep? I dunno. Cheap red flier seems good to me.
    I admit I missed it dealing damage equal to it's attack. That said it's still a 3 cost which won't be able to attack until turn 4. It has it's uses but it's still on a similar level to other rare 3 costs like Vampire Princess, Phenteo, thunderfield Elder, Hopeheart unicorn, Spearcliff Pegasus and Periwinkle. This effect just happens to fit the agro ruby type decks with it's damage. If it targeted it would an auto include in almost any ruby deck but with it being random and being too slow for a mono ruby agro deck and not fitting into ramp decks too well especially being double threshold I don't see it seeing any consistent constructed play. Of course it will be used in limited, In limited it's fantastic.

  8. #8
    I just wanna T3 Stingshot, T4 swordplay or gorefeast + attack in pve for shits n giggles

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplay View Post
    I admit I missed it dealing damage equal to it's attack. That said it's still a 3 cost which won't be able to attack until turn 4. It has it's uses but it's still on a similar level to other rare 3 costs like Vampire Princess, Phenteo, thunderfield Elder, Hopeheart unicorn, Spearcliff Pegasus and Periwinkle. This effect just happens to fit the agro ruby type decks with it's damage. If it targeted it would an auto include in almost any ruby deck but with it being random and being too slow for a mono ruby agro deck and not fitting into ramp decks too well especially being double threshold I don't see it seeing any consistent constructed play. Of course it will be used in limited, In limited it's fantastic.
    You're right it's about as good as vampire princess, phenteo etc. My point is it's the best ruby 3 drop for ruby aggro. Obviously you disagree with that given you said it was too slow. That's fine, opinions will differ.

  10. #10
    The thread is called the power creep thread can you really say you go into it without any prejudgement?
    Last edited by wolzarg; 03-03-2016 at 06:56 PM.
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