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d00dz
05-14-2013, 06:55 PM
Thats a very good compromise :)

TheBokononist
05-14-2013, 07:02 PM
+1 for BigDog's idea on page 50 (Post#499)

Daer
05-14-2013, 07:33 PM
Seems like it would create a lot of unnecessary bloat having 2 versions of every card in the game.

TheBokononist
05-14-2013, 07:51 PM
@Daer That might be the case but, since each card will be treated as a separate entity already (double-face back with achievements, level, exp, gear, etc etc), it is just a matter of adding a PvE stamp to the double-face back (and the corresponding data).

BigDog
05-14-2013, 09:12 PM
Well it would still be the same set, so it would be in the same set as the original as far as whatever the card collection manager is concerned as an alternate card similar to a foil but flagged for pve-only.

mauvebutterfly
05-14-2013, 09:48 PM
Seems like it would create a lot of unnecessary bloat having 2 versions of every card in the game.

Keep in mind that every single card is already a separate entity on their servers. Each card gains experience, and has different achievements, and even has a history of events that card participated in.

In other words, even if your starting deck has two copies of the same common troop in it, after your first game (assuming one or both of them were played) they will already have different values such as 'damage dealt.' Adding an extra TRUE/FALSE flag for PvP isn't going to make much of a difference considering how much they are already keeping track of with each card.

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 05:53 AM
I really think we have found the answer. I hope the sheer size of the thread doesnt scare off Cryptozoaic here!

Rieper
05-15-2013, 06:23 AM
we? No you found your idea, nothing else.

I still donīt like the idea. Either they phased out(with maybe retro special events now and then) or cards stay. Middle way is just never a good solution. It just confuses and often actually ends up hurting people, because easy to confuse a card in trade, same time you giving twice as many card to track when it really isnīt needed at all.
And it will lower value to. Why, because value of a card after it is out of block depends on casuel market or the tournements that not block dependent!

Mushroom_C1oud
05-15-2013, 06:25 AM
Keep in mind that every single card is already a separate entity on their servers. Each card gains experience, and has different achievements, and even has a history of events that card participated in.

In other words, even if your starting deck has two copies of the same common troop in it, after your first game (assuming one or both of them were played) they will already have different values such as 'damage dealt.' Adding an extra TRUE/FALSE flag for PvP isn't going to make much of a difference considering how much they are already keeping track of with each card.

As long as there is still a way to do constructed decks with these cards for PvP I'm all for it. It doesn't have to be for tournaments, just friendly PvP and not an anything goes PvE deck because that would include all the PvE cards and equipment.

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 06:31 AM
I would like to see this game progress where other TCG's have stagnated or made mistakes. One of the huge set backs in Magic, in my opinion, is it's really hard for newer gamers to get into eternal formats or even newer formats that use old staples because certain cards are not reprinted or rarely get reprinted. It sucks and it's not fun having to pay $600 for a deck. In my opinion, a great compromise would be to have a set go "out of print" and then a couple years later, do a reprinting or best of with different borders or set symbols from the originals. That way new players have a chance to get in. We're lucky to get in on the ground floor of what is potentially the greatest online TCG, ever. Why punish new players that are going to help keep this game thriving in the years to come?

Lets worry about the game first, and the secondary market second.

Rieper
05-15-2013, 06:37 AM
"Lets worry about the game first, and the secondary market second. "

All this retiring sets is us being worried about the game. Secondary market means so much for a TCG!(look at name, Trading = secondary market!)
And i agree magic going for decks where power 9 is allowed sinīt cheap, but remeber magic is not new anymore and first few sets that had those insane card sold alot less then newer sets and a good amount got destroyed/lost/stolen over time.

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 06:42 AM
I'm not sure how well versed you are in Magic but it's not just the old Black Lotus sitting in someone's shoebox in a garage I'm talking about.

There are cards printed in the last 7 years that go for over $100 a piece, that are used in a ton of decks. Manabases are ridiculous and STRONGLY limit what you're able to play. There are cards that were printed within the last year which get close to $80 a piece.

Everyone likes having rare cards or collectibles, that's totally cool. But there is a way to still make your card collectible and be able to "reprint" it either in a different collection or with a special symbol/denotation.

I really don't want to see another game that creates a huge cost barrier for certain formats. We should be trying to improve on other card games mistakes or weaknesses, not copying them because "that's what a TCG is, man."

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 06:43 AM
I would like to see this game progress where other TCG's have stagnated or made mistakes. One of the huge set backs in Magic, in my opinion, is it's really hard for newer gamers to get into eternal formats or even newer formats that use old staples because certain cards are not reprinted or rarely get reprinted. It sucks and it's not fun having to pay $600 for a deck. In my opinion, a great compromise would be to have a set go "out of print" and then a couple years later, do a reprinting or best of with different borders or set symbols from the originals. That way new players have a chance to get in. We're lucky to get in on the ground floor of what is potentially the greatest online TCG, ever. Why punish new players that are going to help keep this game thriving in the years to come?

Lets worry about the game first, and the secondary market second.

Not sure why you'd expect new players to have an easy access to the same collection that players have been spending thousands/years for in the first place.
Competitive gameplay will be about available boosters.

~

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 06:45 AM
I'm not sure how well versed you are in Magic but it's not just the old Black Lotus sitting in someone's shoebox in a garage I'm talking about.

There are cards printed in the last 7 years that go for over $100 a piece, that are used in a ton of decks. Manabases are ridiculous and STRONGLY limit what you're able to play. There are cards that were printed within the last year which get close to $80 a piece.

Everyone likes having rare cards or collectibles, that's totally cool. But there is a way to still make your card collectible and be able to "reprint" it either in a different collection or with a special symbol/denotation.

I really don't want to see another game that creates a huge cost barrier for certain formats. We should be trying to improve on other card games mistakes or weaknesses, not copying them because "that's what a TCG is, man."

I play Legacy, I paid the full price for my cards and I'm glad they retain their value...
if you cannot afford it, play it on MWS or cockatrice or don't play it at all.

I don't have $10k to pay for a P9 so I don't play Vintage, I know my limits and I deal with it.

~

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 06:45 AM
They've said many times that each card will be extremely unique. There's no reason why they couldn't do a "special" reprinting of certain cards that either look different, have different borders, etc. like Chronicles but done right.

Devaux
05-15-2013, 06:45 AM
Not sure why you'd expect new players to have an easy access to the same collection that players have been spending thousands/years in the first place.
Competitive gameplay will be about available boosters.

~

Isn't available boosters what this conversation is about?

Also, "easy access" is not the same as "not prohibitively expensive".

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 06:47 AM
I play Legacy, I paid the full price for my cards and I'm glad they retain their value...
if you cannot afford it, play it on MWS or cockatrice or don't play it at all.

I don't have $10k to pay for a P9 so I don't play Vintage, I know my limits and I deal with it.

~

That's basically saying, "I got here first, so deal with it." That's as lame as when someone says, "Hey, I really like the Beatles." and you make fun of them for just getting into the Beatles. The difference is, at least they can still easily access that music and enjoy it. There isn't a huge barrier set up and they're not being punished for not knowing something existed.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 06:48 AM
Isn't available boosters what this conversation is about?

Also, "easy access" is not the same as "not prohibitively expensive".

So we agree, since competitive gameplay's cards will be in not out of print boosters.

How would it be fair if I spend $1k on boosters/cards to see someone 2 years later get as much with $100 (because of the infinite supplies devaluation)?

~

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 06:54 AM
I've said, many times, they would be different cards. You can look at Magic and see that when they do reprintings (in the last few years, not Chronicles) it hasn't had a significant effect on the older versions of the cards. They've basically maintained their price. There certainly is a way for the cards to be reprinted/made available again without it hurting your "investment."

Aeris130
05-15-2013, 06:54 AM
Just give the original set a distinct feature like black borders or something. Or make it so that re-prints doesn't have any double-back data and can't become foiled. That way the originals still have way more value as collectibles, and tournament players can choose to endure the shame of playing gimped reprints if they really want to make a certain deck.

Kami
05-15-2013, 06:55 AM
There seems to also be an assumption that older set cards will be significantly better than newer set cards leading to a reverse card chase.

There will also be a guild bank as well so players who want to play around with older sets will likely have an opportunity to do so.

(On a side-note, Omar, could you please shrink your signature size(s) down? It's really obnoxious to have to scroll a huge chunk of the way down just to go over one of your posts. :/ )

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 06:56 AM
I just think it's super dangerous to set a precedent of just because you were here first it makes other players completely locked out without investing major cash. There is a compromise and you're being stubborn and are clearly valuing $ over community access and play. If all you care about is buying and selling and hoarding, look into stocks or gold.

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 06:57 AM
There seems to also be an assumption that older set cards will be significantly better than newer set cards leading to a reverse card chase.

There will also be a guild bank as well so players who want to play around with older sets will likely have an opportunity to do so.

(On a side-note, Omar, could you please shrink your signature size(s) down? It's really obnoxious to have to scroll a huge chunk of the way down just to go over one of your posts. :/ )

If you or someone else can scale it down for me I will definitely do that, I don't know how to do that on my own. Sorry.

Sereaphim
05-15-2013, 06:57 AM
So we agree, since competitive gameplay's cards will be in not out of print boosters.

How would it be fair if I spend $1k on boosters/cards to see someone 2 years later get as much with $100 (because of the infinite supplies devaluation)?

~

Why should he in 2 years get this cards so much cheaper ?
This makes no sense because people stop buying booster if they have all cards they need from a edition and they buy most likely cards from a new edition.

I played enough online tcg to tell you that cards price still stay high because lesser and lesser people buy old booster and new people still need sometimes cards from old edition.

Kami
05-15-2013, 06:58 AM
I just think it's super dangerous to set a precedent of just because you were here first it makes other players completely locked out without investing major cash. There is a compromise and you're being stubborn and are clearly valuing $ over community access and play. If all you care about is buying and selling and hoarding, look into stocks or gold.

It's also an equally dangerous precedent to have players make large investments of their time and/or money and have it be worthless compared to those who spend as little as possible.


If you or someone else can scale it down for me I will definitely do that, I don't know how to do that on my own. Sorry.

If you don't know how, just remove it for now. >_>

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 06:59 AM
If you read my comments in the thread you'll understand it's not my point.
I'm just pissed at people who have no clue on how TCG and economics work and pledge $10 asking for everything to be free.

It doesn't work that way, get over it.

~

BossHoss
05-15-2013, 07:00 AM
That's basically saying, "I got here first, so deal with it." That's as lame as when someone says, "Hey, I really like the Beatles." and you make fun of them for just getting into the Beatles. The difference is, at least they can still easily access that music and enjoy it. There isn't a huge barrier set up and they're not being punished for not knowing something existed.

To play devil`s advocate to your argument: Someone right now may like the beatles but they will never be able to go see them live in concert like someone who liked them in the beginning.

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 07:01 AM
It's also an equally dangerous precedent to have players make large investments of their time and/or money and have it be worthless compared to those who spend as little as possible.



If you don't know how, just remove it for now. >_>

Dude, you're just talking out your ass some doomsday scenario. Go look at Magic: the Gathering, the most successful TCG. When they have done reprintings, recently (again, not Chronicles) they have not had a significant impact on the original cards value.

New players have access, old players still own cards with value. Everyone is happy, and, most importantly, everyone can play the game pretty easily.

Devaux
05-15-2013, 07:03 AM
So we agree, since competitive gameplay's cards will be in not out of print boosters.

How would it be fair if I spend $1k on boosters/cards to see someone 2 years later get as much with $100 (because of the infinite supplies devaluation)?

~

It would be fair because you got them two years earlier and thus already have gotten 2 years worth of use out of them.

EDIT: If what you're looking for is something to invest in then I recommend the Dow (I believe its up today). If you're looking to play a hobby then you should probably be prepared to pay some money and never see that money in your wallet again.

Kami
05-15-2013, 07:04 AM
Dude, you're just talking out your ass some doomsday scenario. Go look at Magic: the Gathering, the most successful TCG. When they have done reprintings, recently (again, not Chronicles) they have not had a significant impact on the original cards value.

New players have access, old players still own cards with value. Everyone is happy, and, most importantly, everyone can play the game pretty easily.

Nobody advocating retiring sets is against reprints in a different set. We are against keeping ORIGINAL sets INDEFINITELY AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE.

Keeping the cards in circulation is one thing, keeping it always available for purchase is another.

Alpha Black Lotus vs Beta Black Lotus vs Unlimited Black Lotus as an example.

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 07:04 AM
To play devil`s advocate to your argument: Someone right now may like the beatles but they will never be able to go see them live in concert like someone who liked them in the beginning.

Seeing live music is not the same as being able to just hear it, so you're introducing a new element into the argument which really morphs it and really no longer has a direct correlation to what we're talking about. But, basically, it still boils down to, "I've been around longer than you so I should get special treatment which involves limiting how much you can get into this game" and the other person is like, "Dude, I just heard about this and thought it was cool, relax. I'm not trying to steal the inheritance you plan on leaving to your kids, I just want to play a game." "NO MY OLD CARDS ALL MINE."

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 07:05 AM
Nobody advocating retiring sets is against reprints in a different set. We are against keeping ORIGINAL sets INDEFINITELY AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE.

Keeping the cards in circulation is one thing, keeping it always available for purchase is another.

Alpha Black Lotus vs Beta Black Lotus vs Unlimited Black Lotus as an example.

I've said quite a few times that using old old cards like that isn't what I'm talking about, but thanks for playing.

Kami
05-15-2013, 07:06 AM
I'm curious how much people who are against phasing out legacy booster purchasing are actually planning on spending on this game.

Devaux
05-15-2013, 07:08 AM
I'm curious how much people who are against phasing out legacy booster purchasing are actually planning on spending on this game.

Enough to get 4 copies of each card and then draft when I want to. Why?

Kami
05-15-2013, 07:10 AM
Enough to get 4 copies of each card and then draft when I want to. Why?

Because a lot of the arguments are to spend as little money as possible.

And really, this only affects Constructed-type PvP. PvE would be untouched, same with draft play really.

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 07:11 AM
I will probably keep spending the same amount because I want to draft/collect new sets.

Basically, I want there to be a set number of X card. I don't want there to be infinity of X card. And, when a new block comes out, those old packs should be unavailable or harder to get, etc. when they are not in "standard." BUT, I think it's very important that every couple of years, something is released that is an ALTERNATE version (as to not tank the value of the original) that gives players access to staple old cards, a la Modern Masters in Magic (but at a fair and reasonable cost) and maybe even fun things like "Retro Drafts." etc. so people can kind of get to experience what we were lucky enough to experience without having to pay an arm and a leg.

Again, your OLD, ORIGINAL cards will be unaffected by printings of new ones. If you're against this, you're basically saying, "No, this is my club and you can't get in unless you pay lots of money." and that's really, really lame.

Sereaphim
05-15-2013, 07:12 AM
I'm curious how much people who are against phasing out legacy booster purchasing are actually planning on spending on this game.

I will spend 65 dollar and for sure make monthly subscription and i still think phasing would more damage the then help this game.
Online games need new blood to stay alive and you can't hole new player back with cards they can no longer get in pvp.

My idea would be to make it that if a card get a reprint all cards with the name in every booster get replaced with the new artwork.
And all people that have the old artwork can keep it.

This way old player still have something unique and new player can still get the old cards to a fair price.

Devaux
05-15-2013, 07:13 AM
Because a lot of the arguments are to spend as little money as possible.

And really, this only affects Constructed-type PvP. PvE would be untouched, same with draft play really.

You misunderstand me. What I want is a healthy and growing PvP community. This means the formats need to be open to new players. If staples are prohibitively expensive then the formats wont grow and I'll have less people to play against.

And yes it only affects Constructed. Thats why I want the cards to be available.

Daer
05-15-2013, 07:13 AM
Omar I don't think anyone who is for making sets 'out of print' is against allowing reprints in later sets so I'm not even sure what you are arguing about.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 07:14 AM
What you guys don't get AGAIN is that if there is certainty of devaluation, there will be poor investment and there will be no game.

~

Kami
05-15-2013, 07:14 AM
Again, your OLD, ORIGINAL cards will be unaffected by printings of new ones. If you're against this, you're basically saying, "No, this is my club and you can't get in unless you pay lots of money." and that's really, really lame.

Um... that's what we've been saying the whole time. The whole crux of the argument is that people didn't want the original cards to have a set limit, ever.

We are not against reprints of cards in the future (a la Magic's various "Editions"), or extremely limited releases of original set during special events (preferably not).

Several arguments, including yours at one point were arguing that the ORIGINAL cards should be made available indefinitely to all buyers.

Devaux
05-15-2013, 07:14 AM
Omar I don't think anyone who is for making sets 'out of print' is against allowing reprints in later sets so I'm not even sure what you are arguing about.

Me neither. I can't believe I came back here.

Wait. How are reprints different from keeping the sets in-print?

BossHoss
05-15-2013, 07:14 AM
Seeing live music is not the same as being able to just hear it, so you're introducing a new element into the argument which really morphs it and really no longer has a direct correlation to what we're talking about. But, basically, it still boils down to, "I've been around longer than you so I should get special treatment which involves limiting how much you can get into this game" and the other person is like, "Dude, I just heard about this and thought it was cool, relax. I'm not trying to steal the inheritance you plan on leaving to your kids, I just want to play a game." "NO MY OLD CARDS ALL MINE."

My point is that this game is a "sandbox" and everyone will like to play differently. I enjoy the stock market aspect of predicting card values based on what COULD go well with it in a future set. If the market gets overly flooded with open access to cards all the time then the "sandbox" will get smaller. It is no different than the kickstarter exclusive rewards remaining indefinitely open for new players.

Kami
05-15-2013, 07:15 AM
Me neither. I can't believe I came back here.

Wait. How are reprints different from keeping the sets in-print?

Just look at the price difference between Alpha Black Lotus and Unlimited Black Lotus and you have your answer. :P

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 07:16 AM
you misunderstand me. What i want is a healthy and growing pvp community. This means the formats need to be open to new players. If staples are prohibitively expensive then the formats wont grow and i'll have less people to play against.

And yes it only affects constructed. Thats why i want the cards to be available.

competitive will be on a 2 years rotation.
We want 3 years old boosters to not be available anymore for collecting purpose.

~

Daer
05-15-2013, 07:17 AM
Me neither. I can't believe I came back here.

Wait. How are reprints different from keeping the sets in-print?

Because you would just be reprinting certain cards (preferably with different art) rather than keeping the entire set available to buy forever.

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 07:17 AM
we? No you found your idea, nothing else.

I still donīt like the idea. Either they phased out(with maybe retro special events now and then) or cards stay. Middle way is just never a good solution. It just confuses and often actually ends up hurting people, because easy to confuse a card in trade, same time you giving twice as many card to track when it really isnīt needed at all.
And it will lower value to. Why, because value of a card after it is out of block depends on casuel market or the tournements that not block dependent!

Not my idea. Mine was allowing retired cards to be made with many other cards in crafting.

Devaux
05-15-2013, 07:18 AM
Just look at the price difference between Alpha Black Lotus and Unlimited Black Lotus and you have your answer. :P

This discussion isn't about black lotus. Can we please stop doing that. What about Tarmogoyf? Thats more relevant.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 07:18 AM
Tarmogoyf is getting reprinted as Mythic and will still cost $80

~

Devaux
05-15-2013, 07:19 AM
Tarmogoyf is getting reprinted as Mythic and will still cost $80

~

Hence my point.

Kami
05-15-2013, 07:19 AM
This discussion isn't about black lotus. Can we please stop doing that. What about Tarmogoyf? Thats more relevant.

The point, that you missed, was that original prints still retain value over future set reprints. It doesn't matter if it was Black Lotus or some other card.

Bloodthunder
05-15-2013, 07:19 AM
I think that making sets go out of print, would be a good idea because those cards become more rarely then. This will lead to more discussion and activity to players who wants to trade those cards. This would be require more social activity and some negotiation for the card market. Also if you have lets say a really rare card with good items and gems you are proud of it and you want to show it on every game leading to think of more strategys around this card so you can stay flexible.

Thanks for reading.

Tim

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 07:21 AM
What you guys don't get AGAIN is that if there is certainty of devaluation, there will be poor investment and there will be no game.

~

What you don't, again is that there is no certainty of devaluation and I've told you multiple times that in recent Magic reprintings there has been no significant effect on the older versions of the cards.

Seriously, dude, no one is telling you how much money you should be dumping into this but it's literally a game, not an investment, and maybe you should look into an IRA or some shit because I am way more concerned with having new players be able to be competitive and a level playing field than I am you being able to cash out your digital card collection in 19 years and make a couple thousand.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-15-2013, 07:23 AM
What you guys don't get AGAIN is that if there is certainty of devaluation, there will be poor investment and there will be no game.

~

I think what you're trying to say is that you have no interest in HEX just playing the secondary market "game".

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 07:24 AM
Nobody advocating retiring sets is against reprints in a different set. We are against keeping ORIGINAL sets INDEFINITELY AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE.

Keeping the cards in circulation is one thing, keeping it always available for purchase is another.

Alpha Black Lotus vs Beta Black Lotus vs Unlimited Black Lotus as an example.

So if thats the argument, why is the fix of marking the cards differently, and excluding them from use in PvP not a good fix? Those who want the cards for collection sake can still buy boosters, still generate income for Crypto, can still use the cards to their hearts content in PvE, but cannot use them for PvP.

To use them in a tournament, you still need to find the limited printed run of the cards opened while the booster was still in circulation. You essentially have created an unlimited set to the Alpha.

Devaux
05-15-2013, 07:25 AM
The point, that you missed, was that original prints still retain value over future set reprints. It doesn't matter if it was Black Lotus or some other card.

No I got that. Black Lotus is a corner case though. I'm talking about cards that are staples in common competitive formats.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 07:25 AM
Omar, you're either retarded or a troll.
If sets don't go out of print, the game economy will devaluate and the game will die.

A set goes out of print once it's no more STANDARD FORMAT LEGAL (which is the competitive format).

And yes staples well designed cards should be reprinted, nobody advocated against that.

~

Stok3d
05-15-2013, 07:25 AM
Um... that's what we've been saying the whole time. The whole crux of the argument is that people didn't want the original cards to have a set limit, ever.

We are not against reprints of cards in the future (a la Magic's various "Editions"), or extremely limited releases of original set during special events (preferably not).

Several arguments, including yours at one point were arguing that the ORIGINAL cards should be made available indefinitely to all buyers.

I agree 100%. No need to reiterate anything past what you said Kami

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 07:26 AM
Um... that's what we've been saying the whole time. The whole crux of the argument is that people didn't want the original cards to have a set limit, ever.

We are not against reprints of cards in the future (a la Magic's various "Editions"), or extremely limited releases of original set during special events (preferably not).

Several arguments, including yours at one point were arguing that the ORIGINAL cards should be made available indefinitely to all buyers.

I meant the original card in the sense that it would be a reprint, not that there would be unlimited numbers of X card floating around.

I think you and I are somewhat on the same page. I do agree there has to be a set limit and we can't just have them "print" indefinitely.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 07:26 AM
I think what you're trying to say is that you have no interest in HEX just playing the secondary market "game".

I give up.

~

Devaux
05-15-2013, 07:27 AM
Omar, you're either retarded or a troll.
If sets don't go out of print, the game economy will devaluate and the game will die.

A set goes out of print once it's no more STANDARD FORMAT LEGAL (which is the competitive format).

And yes staples well designed cards should be reprinted, nobody advocated against that.

~

Why is it that whenever I see somebody flaming somebody else its always you?

There is a standard constricted format but also a legacy format.

Rieper
05-15-2013, 07:27 AM
What you don't, again is that there is no certainty of devaluation and I've told you multiple times that in recent Magic reprintings there has been no significant effect on the older versions of the cards.


No, you talking reprints which this side of people are fine with. Reprints with new art, keeps value of old card, because it is not same card anymore. Your saying it yourself reprints do not devalue because the originals ones are still there, still jsut as rare for collectors. (reprints are often looked down on value wise!)
While keeping a set in, means value WILL drop because 100% same card, same art, same symbol and everything...

Mushroom_C1oud
05-15-2013, 07:28 AM
Reprints is a good compromise over the out-of-print debate. Older cards can still retain value, broken cards can be left out, and new players can have access to all useable cards.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 07:28 AM
I meant the original card in the sense that it would be a reprint, not that there would be unlimited numbers of X card floating around.

I think you and I are somewhat on the same page. I do agree there has to be a set limit and we can't just have them "print" indefinitely.

Why would you necro a post by disagreeing with what you think is best?

~

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 07:29 AM
reprints is a good compromise over the out-of-print debate. Older cards can still retain value, broken cards can be left out, and new players can have access to all useable cards.

how can a 3 years old card be legal for play in a 2 years format if it wasn't reprinted in the first place?

~

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 07:29 AM
I'm curious how much people who are against phasing out legacy booster purchasing are actually planning on spending on this game.

Me. Ive already spent a fair deal and I intend on spending a fair deal more. I dont ever expect to be in a position where I havent completed a set before its phased out. I do believe for the sake of the game, we can find a solution that keeps cards value, and allows new players who come to the party late to reasonably gain cards from yesteryear.

I agree with EVERYTHING you guys are saying. I get it, I completely do. But rather than repeat it ad nauseum for 56 pages, I believe the better thing to do would be find a solution to the problem. There is a middle ground to be found that keeps cards retaining value, and doesnt exclude others from playing them. I think the suggestion proposed a few pages back (dint pay attention to the name) where PvP cards become PvE only cards, unless from teh original print is the perfect solution. Essentially, those packs would sell proxies that you can use to muck about with your friends, but you cannot use them for tournaments. They are essentially worthless in the scheme of a TCG, but great for the PvE player.

Kami
05-15-2013, 07:29 AM
So if thats the argument, why is the fix of marking the cards differently, and excluding them from use in PvP not a good fix? Those who want the cards for collection sake can still buy boosters, still generate income for Crypto, can still use the cards to their hearts content in PvE, but cannot use them for PvP.

To use them in a tournament, you still need to find the limited printed run of the cards opened while the booster was still in circulation. You essentially have created an unlimited set to the Alpha.

For those that are buying cards for collection's sake and not planning on playing with them, what difference would price make to them in the long run if they are true collectors? Stamps, coins, artwork, etc. - there are various examples that collectors will go to great lengths to obtain it. To most people, it wouldn't matter.

And since this is digital format, they could always create a legacy draft with free non-retainable legacy boosters (no entry fee, no prizes, no ranking, etc.) and let others still enjoy the older sets without devaluing the cards.

Also GUILD BANK. :3

OmarEpps
05-15-2013, 07:30 AM
No, you talking reprints which this side of people are fine with. Reprints with new art, keeps value of old card, because it is not same card anymore. Your saying it yourself reprints do not devalue because the originals ones are still there, still jsut as rare for collectors. (reprints are often looked down on value wise!)


This is what I am in more in line with and I apologize to anyone who didn't understand me, like Fireblast. My bad.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 07:31 AM
Why is it that whenever I see somebody flaming somebody else its always you?

There is a standard constricted format but also a legacy format.

Legacy is not Legacy if sets are still being printed!!!

~

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 07:35 AM
For those that are buying cards for collection's sake and not planning on playing with them, what difference would price make to them in the long run if they are true collectors? Stamps, coins, artwork, etc. - there are various examples that collectors will go to great lengths to obtain it. To most people, it wouldn't matter.

And since this is digital format, they could always create a legacy draft with free non-retainable legacy boosters (no entry fee, no prizes, no ranking, etc.) and let others still enjoy the older sets without devaluing the cards.

Also GUILD BANK. :3

I dont understand the logical jump you made that a collector = someone willing to spend a lot of money. If the option is available to them to collect in a reasonable price frame, why cant they do that? You just threw strawmen at me rather than address the issue, as to how that particular fix would devalue your original "alpha" print of the set.

Its essentially creating a white border set that has no value, allowing the original black border set to retain its value and keep both parties happy.

Rieper
05-15-2013, 07:38 AM
Reason he made that jump is really simpel. Collectors actually like they items having value.(not all ofc)

I wrote it before and will again. Collectors like to feel special for owning that rare and high value item...

Kami
05-15-2013, 07:38 AM
I dont understand the logical jump you made that a collector = someone willing to spend a lot of money. If the option is available to them to collect in a reasonable price frame, why cant they do that? You just threw strawmen at me rather than address the issue, as to how that particular fix would devalue your original "alpha" print of the set.

Its essentially creating a white border set that has no value, allowing the original black border set to retain its value and keep both parties happy.

I never said that all collectors are willing to spend a large amount of money.

I'm saying that collectors tend to go to great lengths to get something. And the reason they do is because it is valuable.

If anybody could easily obtain something, there's not really much worth in doing it.

For example, would a collection of Commons be as good as a collection of Rares? Should they be equally easy to obtain?

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 07:40 AM
For example, would a collection of Commons be as good as a collection of Rares? Should they be equally easy to obtain?

They'd be of equal worth, but the guy who designed the rarity layers would have to be fired!

~

Mushroom_C1oud
05-15-2013, 07:41 AM
I never said that all collectors are willing to spend a large amount of money.

I'm saying that collectors tend to go to great lengths to get something. And the reason they do is because it is valuable.

If anybody could easily obtain something, there's not really much worth in doing it.

For example, would a collection of Commons be as good as a collection of Rares? Should they be equally easy to obtain?

Collectors will still focus on the original prints. Players will focus on the plethora of strategic opportunities that reprints will bring.

BossHoss
05-15-2013, 07:42 AM
Me. Ive already spent a fair deal and I intend on spending a fair deal more. I dont ever expect to be in a position where I havent completed a set before its phased out. I do believe for the sake of the game, we can find a solution that keeps cards value, and allows new players who come to the party late to reasonably gain cards from yesteryear.

I agree with EVERYTHING you guys are saying. I get it, I completely do. But rather than repeat it ad nauseum for 56 pages, I believe the better thing to do would be find a solution to the problem. There is a middle ground to be found that keeps cards retaining value, and doesnt exclude others from playing them. I think the suggestion proposed a few pages back (dint pay attention to the name) where PvP cards become PvE only cards, unless from teh original print is the perfect solution. Essentially, those packs would sell proxies that you can use to muck about with your friends, but you cannot use them for tournaments. They are essentially worthless in the scheme of a TCG, but great for the PvE player.

Post #499

Kami
05-15-2013, 07:43 AM
Collectors will still focus on the original prints. Players will focus on the plethora of strategic opportunities that reprints will bring.

Right... but the argument you guys are making are that everyone will want to have the originals.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-15-2013, 07:44 AM
Right... but the argument you guys are making are that everyone will want to have the originals.

No, just the collectors. I want to be able to have access without breaking the bank. I think this is a suitable compromise.

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 07:45 AM
Reason he made that jump is really simpel. Collectors actually like they items having value.(not all ofc)

I wrote it before and will again. Collectors like to feel special for owning that rare and high value item...

I do too. Which is why I will be ESPECIALLY proud of my original print set. But little bobby who plays the game 5 years from now achieving the cards in a lesser extent isnt going to make me feel less special.

BossHoss
05-15-2013, 07:46 AM
No, just the collectors. I want to be able to have access without breaking the bank. I think this is a suitable compromise.

Isnt that what joining a guild is for? Join a guild with a collector who enjoys spending money to collect cards... you play them and they do not lose value due to shuffling etc (great perk for collectors in being digital as the card is always mint)

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 07:46 AM
Are we talking about reprints or originals?

Did you get the point that originals (phased out) cards will not be chased for competitive play because they wouldn't be legal?
EXCEPT if they were reprinted in a legal set...

~

demonanil
05-15-2013, 07:47 AM
Since this game is not purely just a TCG. There are alot of other elements to it. Such as dungeons raids playing against the AI. Some players do not want to pvp, or play competitively. They just want to collect some cards and play in the dungeons. They want to play casually. I do not think cards should go out of print. Some players will join down the line and might want some of the older cards and would rather buy them from the store, rather than going to the AH and buying from players with random prices. However if cards should go out of print i would say. Have the old PVP card sets go out of print, not the PVE sets. The PVE cards should always be available to the community. Alot of you seem to be vets and above average tcg players and your looking at all of this only as PVP tournament draft style type of game. Which again as i said, it's not. This also an mmo, it has dungeons raids and alot of PVE content in it. So they must also consider non PVP players and casual players as well.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 07:48 AM
No, just the collectors. I want to be able to have access without breaking the bank. I think this is a suitable compromise.

The issue is that you want to access without breaking the bank on the EXACT same things that people broke the bank for.
And it doesn't work like that if you want the game to live long.

~

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 07:48 AM
I never said that all collectors are willing to spend a large amount of money.

I'm saying that collectors tend to go to great lengths to get something. And the reason they do is because it is valuable.

If anybody could easily obtain something, there's not really much worth in doing it.

For example, would a collection of Commons be as good as a collection of Rares? Should they be equally easy to obtain?

Then we need to agree to disagree, because I know there are some people who are not "big game hunter" style of collectors, who needs to have the whole original print, but will feel just as proud of themselves for tracking down 750 cards from the first block, even if said cards are the lesser, PVE only version, because 750 things to collect is still a mean feat.

And they are two different sets. Whether the collector enjoys collecting it is still not the issue. The issue is hwo does the second set devalue the original set?

Mushroom_C1oud
05-15-2013, 07:48 AM
Isnt that what joining a guild is for? Join a guild with a collector who enjoys spending money to collect cards... you play them and they do not lose value due to shuffling etc (great perk for collectors in being digital as the card is always mint)

You're assuming everyone is going to be joining a big guild.

Kami
05-15-2013, 07:49 AM
Since this game is not purely just a TCG. There are alot of other elements to it. Such as dungeons raids playing against the AI. Some players do not want to pvp, or play competitively. They just want to collect some cards and play in the dungeons. They want to play casually. I do not think cards should go out of print. Some players will join down the line and might want some of the older cards and would rather buy them from the store, rather than going to the AH and buying from players with random prices. However if cards should go out of print i would say. Have the old PVP card sets go out of print, not the PVE sets. The PVE cards should always be available to the community. Alot of you seem to be vets and above average tcg players and your looking at all of this only as PVP tournament draft style type of game. Which again as i said, it's not. This also an mmo, it has dungeons raids and alot of PVE content in it. So they must also consider non PVP players and casual players as well.

Nobody has argued anything about PvE stuff going out of print or content being removed. It's all about Legacy Boosters (which are PvP only anyway).

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 07:50 AM
Since this game is not purely just a TCG. There are alot of other elements to it. Such as dungeons raids playing against the AI. Some players do not want to pvp, or play competitively. They just want to collect some cards and play in the dungeons. They want to play casually. I do not think cards should go out of print. Some players will join down the line and might want some of the older cards and would rather buy them from the store, rather than going to the AH and buying from players with random prices. However if cards should go out of print i would say. Have the old PVP card sets go out of print, not the PVE sets. The PVE cards should always be available to the community. Alot of you seem to be vets and above average tcg players and your looking at all of this only as PVP tournament draft style type of game. Which again as i said, it's not. This also an mmo, it has dungeons raids and alot of PVE content in it. So they must also consider non PVP players and casual players as well.

A real casual player will play with what he has/can get in the AH for the $ he wants to invest, so the point is moot.

Considering PvE, all cards from PvE will "drop" from the campaign/dungeons/raids' whatever. These shouldn't be printed out.
Some special Halloween, Xmas event's cards could be "locked" tho. (as some skins are in LoL for instance)

~

BossHoss
05-15-2013, 07:50 AM
Since this game is not purely just a TCG. There are alot of other elements to it. Such as dungeons raids playing against the AI. Some players do not want to pvp, or play competitively. They just want to collect some cards and play in the dungeons. They want to play casually. I do not think cards should go out of print. Some players will join down the line and might want some of the older cards and would rather buy them from the store, rather than going to the AH and buying from players with random prices. However if cards should go out of print i would say. Have the old PVP card sets go out of print, not the PVE sets. The PVE cards should always be available to the community. Alot of you seem to be vets and above average tcg players and your looking at all of this only as PVP tournament draft style type of game. Which again as i said, it's not. This also an mmo, it has dungeons raids and alot of PVE content in it. So they must also consider non PVP players and casual players as well.

Again, join a guild... use the guild bank... have access to all the original cards without the collector losing value with the market becoming flooded as one viable option

Daer
05-15-2013, 07:52 AM
You're assuming everyone is going to be joining a big guild.

They don't need to do so, its just that joining a guild would be an excellent way to play with old out of print cards.

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 07:53 AM
Nobody has argued anything about PvE stuff going out of print or content being removed. It's all about Legacy Boosters (which are PvP only anyway).

But PvP stuff can be used for PvE. Take them out of print, and thats half the PVE game missing.

BossHoss
05-15-2013, 07:55 AM
You're assuming everyone is going to be joining a big guild.

Not necessarily. I for one have always been a big collector through means of card market value. I enjoy the chase of the "stock" price change to complete sets for as cheap as possible. I in turn always lent out access to my complete MTG sets to tournament players for competitive deck builds. Even new players from my store who wanted to play in GP`s would have access to Legacy decks to compete.

Rieper
05-15-2013, 07:56 AM
I do too. Which is why I will be ESPECIALLY proud of my original print set. But little bobby who plays the game 5 years from now achieving the cards in a lesser extent isnt going to make me feel less special.

I am gonna admit my attitude for collecting is simpel. There 2 things from a collecting that will make me happy/proud after in am done collecting.
first being sentimental and rare. This like watching a football(Not called soccer!!!) worldchampion, seeing you team winning finals for first time ever and then getting one of players shirt. It is rare and has sentimental value, because place, time and event! This one is not possible on Hex at all, i would be in magic if a random suprise card would win you world championship. This card would be you most valued card. But as i said not possible in hex, since all are digital..

2nd thing people are proud of from they collection when you ask them, that always that high value rare card they worked they ass off to get. Collecting a full set is fine, but there is more to collecting stuff then that. After you done with getting set, this part is what makes you keep happy and proud about that collection. As soon all cards are easy to get and low value, then this goes away.

So 2 main thing that makes people keep collections goes away. All the fun of collections after you done is now gone!
(hope people understand me, me writing/spelling in english is alot worse compared to when i talk)

Daer
05-15-2013, 07:56 AM
But PvP stuff can be used for PvE. Take them out of print, and thats half the PVE game missing.

You can still use the out of print PVP cards for PVE. If you want everyone to have access to every card go play a LCG.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-15-2013, 07:59 AM
You can still use the out of print PVP cards for PVE. If you want everyone to have access to every card go play a LCG.

That's a poor attitude. "You don't like my opinion go somewhere else!" It's childish. CZE hasn't made a call yet and that is why it is being discussed.

Daer
05-15-2013, 08:00 AM
I think there is about 0% chance CZE hasn't made a call, they just haven't announced it yet.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 08:01 AM
You can still use the out of print PVP cards for PVE. If you want everyone to have access to every card go play a LCG.

We've already had that conversation on the last 500 posts, I think we should give up.

~

Mushroom_C1oud
05-15-2013, 08:02 AM
Another thing that would keep collectors interested in completing older sets, even if they were reprinted, is achievements, titles, and awards.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 08:04 AM
Mushroom, you don't understand the issue is about infinite printing, not reprinting of cards in newer sets.

~

Mushroom_C1oud
05-15-2013, 08:06 AM
Mushroom, you don't understand the issue is about infinite printing, not reprinting of cards in newer sets.

~

Where have you been for the last dozen pages?

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 08:12 AM
I am gonna admit my attitude for collecting is simpel. There 2 things from a collecting that will make me happy/proud after in am done collecting.
first being sentimental and rare. This like watching a football(Not called soccer!!!) worldchampion, seeing you team winning finals for first time ever and then getting one of players shirt. It is rare and has sentimental value, because place, time and event! This one is not possible on Hex at all, i would be in magic if a random suprise card would win you world championship. This card would be you most valued card. But as i said not possible in hex, since all are digital..

2nd thing people are proud of from they collection when you ask them, that always that high value rare card they worked they ass off to get. Collecting a full set is fine, but there is more to collecting stuff then that. After you done with getting set, this part is what makes you keep happy and proud about that collection. As soon all cards are easy to get and low value, then this goes away.

So 2 main thing that makes people keep collections goes away. All the fun of collections after you done is now gone!
(hope people understand me, me writing/spelling in english is alot worse compared to when i talk)

When I was smaller, the state newspaper ran a promotion that for once a week, you could get a special commerative coin that showed a different Ninja Turtle or enemy or cast member. There were 12 to get. You could also buy a piece of cardboard that had hollowed out holes for slotting the coins in to display. I loved getting the newspaper every week and filling in all those slots.

When a new MtG set comes out, I liek to buy a new binder and 50 sleeves. Then as I get cards, I count the slots in the sleeves and start filling them in according to collectors number. I love filling in a few more slots every week when I get new cards, and I start to feel a rush of excitement as I start filling in all the blank spaces.

There are MANY different ways to collect things. Just because it isnt your way, doesnt mean it isnt someone elses way.

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 08:13 AM
You can still use the out of print PVP cards for PVE. If you want everyone to have access to every card go play a LCG.

I liek collecting. LCG has no appeal to me. Why dont you actually tell me why the idea I am championing #499 (thanks Bosshoss) hurts the idea you are championing? Tell me how this idea devalues the cards from teh original print run?

BigDog
05-15-2013, 08:17 AM
On the subject of reprints in new sets, there is another factor that will help maintain value for older sets.

Faith in cze.

I am confident that cze knows what it is doing and won't actively destroy the secondary market. Also if the original art is only used once for cards, and new art for reprints, then you can use the originals in decks when the card is reprinted which can actually make the original worth more since it is now a vanity option. An example in magic is rancor. I found and bought the originals for vanity.

I just know that if the cards never go out of print, then the game i want to play doesn't exist(ah, finance, speculation). People have asked who gets hurt if the sets never rotate. People like me who like the economy sandbox game do. The game i want to play is every bit as valid as the game you want to play.

Rieper
05-15-2013, 08:19 AM
There are MANY different ways to collect things. Just because it isnt your way, doesnt mean it isnt someone elses way.

True. But most people i meet that collects stuff likes it being rare, and value helps stuff being more rare. Everytime i seen people collect something where value is small or easy to get by the things, they drop it again. Collectors dropping our of the game is bad for us all, same as collectors never join because they see they card arenīt worth using money on it.
For me scaring away collectors will hurt community overall.

When you hobby is collecting, yes it is normal to it see a investment. Because if for some reason you loss interrest or need money, you arenīt completly screw, because you hobby still holds resale value..

Daer
05-15-2013, 08:25 AM
I liek collecting. LCG has no appeal to me. Why dont you actually tell me why the idea I am championing #499 (thanks Bosshoss) hurts the idea you are championing? Tell me how this idea devalues the cards from teh original print run?

Because if you have the PVP 'out of print' set and the PVP 'PVE' set the out of print sets value will go down because most people will just get the cheaper 'PVE' PVP cards. If you don't have 2 versions of each set then the only set ('out of print') will have a higher value.

Thrawn
05-15-2013, 08:33 AM
I liek collecting. LCG has no appeal to me. Why dont you actually tell me why the idea I am championing #499 (thanks Bosshoss) hurts the idea you are championing? Tell me how this idea devalues the cards from teh original print run?

If a card would be valuable because it's very good in PvE this still devalues it, that should be obvious.

If we find out down the road that X card from 1st edition is really good against Y new raid boss the card would normally become very valuable and collectible. But under that suggestion we instead see a huge increase in new sales of 1st edition "PVE only" boosters and the card values goes down and down until enough new ones are in the game to meet demand.

So not only does that cut the market for people who enjoy collecting and trading in half it encourages Crypto to create PvE content that is best beaten with cards out of a particular old set to get more sales, or even multiple old sets to create a lot of new sales.

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 08:57 AM
If a card would be valuable because it's very good in PvE this still devalues it, that should be obvious.

If we find out down the road that X card from 1st edition is really good against Y new raid boss the card would normally become very valuable and collectible. But under that suggestion we instead see a huge increase in new sales of 1st edition "PVE only" boosters and the card values goes down and down until enough new ones are in the game to meet demand.

So not only does that cut the market for people who enjoy collecting and trading in half it encourages Crypto to create PvE content that is best beaten with cards out of a particular old set to get more sales, or even multiple old sets to create a lot of new sales.

Thank you. Thats the first time someone actually responded without insult or misdirection.

I dont think PvE will EVER be a market determining aspect of the game. You dont see things like Archenemy or Raid decks breaking the economy of MtG or WoWtcg. Those games are defined by their tournament scene, and the card value directly represents that. Dont get me wrong, I am all for cards going out of print, I understand the need for that to keep the game healthy. I just believe there is a solution to keep EVERYONE happy.

I want to find it!

ShaolinRaven
05-15-2013, 09:02 AM
The problem with keeping card in PvE though is that the card is still in circulation, just because you can't use it in a tourney doesn't mean you can't still own it. Which is where the devaluing comes into play. If I want a card to just complete a collection then I can still go to the cheaper PvE market and nab the card because it is still available to me, as well as all its achievements and its leveling for alternate art. To retain value the cards need to be unavailable except through trading/buying from other players once they cycle out.

BigDog
05-15-2013, 09:05 AM
If a card would be valuable because it's very good in PvE this still devalues it, that should be obvious.

If we find out down the road that X card from 1st edition is really good against Y new raid boss the card would normally become very valuable and collectible. But under that suggestion we instead see a huge increase in new sales of 1st edition "PVE only" boosters and the card values goes down and down until enough new ones are in the game to meet demand.

So not only does that cut the market for people who enjoy collecting and trading in half it encourages Crypto to create PvE content that is best beaten with cards out of a particular old set to get more sales, or even multiple old sets to create a lot of new sales.

You are 100% correct, but then you have nothing to answer the concerns of the individuals who have been advocating the 'always available' side of the argument

Kami
05-15-2013, 09:07 AM
From a part of a discussion I had with someone else earlier:

Since PvP cards can be used in PvE, and we're already told that PvP cards are roughly equivalent strength in comparison to PvE cards, then if PvP 'rare/legendary/powerful' cards are significantly easier to obtain than in PvE, it would undermine that aspect as well.

Why would I work hard to obtain this 'raid' drop if I can get something equivalent for cheap and little-to-no-effort? It also make the PvE less challenging and 'shorter' in that regard.

BigDog
05-15-2013, 09:14 AM
The problem with keeping card in PvE though is that the card is still in circulation, just because you can't use it in a tourney doesn't mean you can't still own it. Which is where the devaluing comes into play. If I want a card to just complete a collection then I can still go to the cheaper PvE market and nab the card because it is still available to me, as well as all its achievements and its leveling for alternate art. To retain value the cards need to be unavailable except through trading/buying from other players once they cycle out.

A lot of hardcore collectors are concerned about rarity so they would want the version that is more scarce.

Also, i imagine that a lot of the pve cards that are super exciting will be loot from raids/dungeons so i had planned to leverage some of my desirable pvp cards into those cards on the ah as they are unlikely to be in packs

Thrawn
05-15-2013, 09:18 AM
You are 100% correct, but then you have nothing to answer the concerns of the individuals who have been advocating the 'always available' side of the argument

Personally I can't address that side without insult or misdirection. They are just wrong, if cards are always available the trading part of "TCG" basically doesn't exist in the PvP side which from the sales of different tiers seems to be the side more people care about.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-15-2013, 09:22 AM
When a block goes out-of-print and a new base set gets printed a majority of those cards would be reprints from the earlier basic set. New cards can be added, and some cards from an older base set can be reprinted with new art to a base set 2 or 3 blocks down the line. That's looking at 4 to 6 years of being out-of-print.

Expansions can get reprinted as Legacy Expansions a block after they go out of print. They would have different borders, different art, and different achievements. The only fundamental thing that would stay the same is the name and how it works. These cards would not be used in your standard draft tournaments.

Making a complete set of either the basic set or an expansion can earn you awards, achievements, and titles. This would keep the value of out-of-print editions valuable since you would not be able to achieve those with the newer sets.

Players who own on older version of a card that comes back in a new set can now use that older version in constructed PvP tournaments.

This would be a fair compromise. It keeps the value of older cards high for collectors and it keeps the value of older cards high for players.

ShaolinRaven
05-15-2013, 09:23 AM
A lot of hardcore collectors are concerned about rarity so they would want the version that is more scarce.

Also, i imagine that a lot of the pve cards that are super exciting will be loot from raids/dungeons so i had planned to leverage some of my desirable pvp cards into those cards on the ah as they are unlikely to be in packs

But thats the point is that the card would not be scarce because it would still be in the game. The only way to make it scarce or enticing to a collector would also mean that once a card cycled out of PvP both the original art and the variant art would have to change for the PvE version and it would have to be tagged as a PvE card. Thats a lot of work to make 2 new art variants for a set every time you cycle a set out, but if Crypto was willing to create basically a new card visually when converting a set or card to PvE only then it would keep the older cards more valuable and the new cards would be enticing to collectors because it would have different art versions.

Tyrfang
05-15-2013, 09:25 AM
As people quit games, they effectively take cards out of circulation.
There will most likely be card sinks that remove cards out of circulation as well.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 09:27 AM
I just believe there is a solution to keep EVERYONE happy.

I want to find it!

There is none, people who don't invest time/money want the same rewards as those who do.

I hope CZE is smart enough to make its paying customers happier than the others.

~

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 09:28 AM
As people quit games, they effectively take cards out of circulation.
There will most likely be card sinks that remove cards out of circulation as well.

supply and demand basic economics state that you are wrong, as infinite supplies always is superior to limited demanded therefore devaluation is the only ending.

~

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 09:44 AM
Personally I can't address that side without insult or misdirection. They are just wrong, if cards are always available the trading part of "TCG" basically doesn't exist in the PvP side which from the sales of different tiers seems to be the side more people care about.

So no trading takes place when sets are current?

What if the cards are not always available for PvP?

Your arguments are great, but the proposed fix answers those concerns.

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 09:45 AM
There is none, people who don't invest time/money want the same rewards as those who do.

I hope CZE is smart enough to make its paying customers happier than the others.

~

Im a paying customer. Your blanket assumption is wrong.

Mushroom_C1oud
05-15-2013, 09:48 AM
Im a paying customer. Your blanket assumption is wrong.

If you click on their name and click on their profile you can add them to your ignore list.

BigDog
05-15-2013, 09:50 AM
There is none, people who don't invest time/money want the same rewards as those who do.

I hope CZE is smart enough to make its paying customers happier than the others.

~

Personally, i would like it if the sets rotated and were no longer on the store period and then the only way to get the older versions would be through the AH and through the infrequent "Old set" draft week system. However, i am still okay with decoupling the PVE and PVP markets since health of the overall game(demand) is as important as making the sets not infinitely available(supply). This way players can play the game they want to play with the a little bit of sacrifice from both sides. The PVP/Finance side gains very little value on the PVE cards as they are not scarce at all while the PVE/Ease of entry side cannot use the PVE cards for PVP tournaments with cards acquired through the store after the "rotate date". A good compomise involves actual sacrifice where we both realize and understand that we cannot have all the things we want.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 10:27 AM
A good compomise involves actual sacrifice where we both realize and understand that we cannot have all the things we want.

Why would a business make compromises that would devaluate their income?


we cannot have all the things we want.

I agree, people who weren't there at start, don't/can't spend the resources required to get the oldest/rarest cards should behave by this principle.

I know I sound very harsh in this post, but it is how the world and the economy (in games or wherever) work.

Movie stars, CEO's, etc... have $100M houses, why do I have to live in a 20mē flat?
Cause that's how world works, and I accept it.

~

jai151
05-15-2013, 10:27 AM
This is a whole lot for me to read through to "catch up" at this point, but I will put myself in the "Sets should go out of print" camp. It's important for the secondary market (which does create revenue for Cryptozoic and encourages the growth and sustainability of the game), it's important for the collector market (If sets don't retire, an individual card will, over time, become more an more common), and it's important for the game designers, who can turn to reprints and staples to flesh out sets rather than having to come up with a brand new block every time. Yes, the third point is solved somewhat by having sets rotate out of tournament play, but there's more of an expectation that sets that are still in print should not share cards.

Cailin_Coilleach
05-15-2013, 11:52 AM
Just to throw another $0.02 into the well: I'd like it if sets go "out of print" as well.

cuscus
05-15-2013, 02:46 PM
I'm also going to commit the cardinal sin of replying despite skipping pages 31-57. As such I'm going to begin with a question.

Has anyone thought about the "double back"? Again please forgive the attempt to generalize, but to me it seems that to please the collectors we need rarity and to please the gamers we need availability. If it were possible to mark that a particular card belonged to a "later printing" on the double back then the "original" cards lacking such a designation would be rare. The "later printing" cards can remain available indefinitely.

This allows for rarity without creating alternate art/foil/whatever sets which I've always seen as just more to collect. It also allows for both hard core and casual collectors. There will be those that want the thrill of hunting down and owning "original" cards as well as those who would enjoy having a full set regardless of printing. I have purposely not defined "later printing" and "original", but the set rotation plan does suggest an appropriate time to mark the transition.

My background and bias. I'm a player first. There was a time when I was a collector (man, building the Legends set was *rough*) but the foil/alt art/chase cards cured me of that. I support cards being always available, but I do see the need to cater to the collectors. I think digital is the answer to both. It's easier to keep the product available and in stock. With what appears to be individual card tracking it is also possible to track "printings" on a card by card basis.

Some issues with this:
1) The double back would have to be readable when buying/trading cards
2) I'm making assumptions about the double back - in particular that it is based on the specific individual card rather than (for example) all cards sharing the title

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 02:50 PM
1) The double back would have to be readable when buying/trading cards
2) I'm making assumptions about the double back - in particular that it is based on the specific individual card rather than (for example) all cards sharing the title

These assumptions have been validated by CZE already :)
Each card and its double back is unique, and you can trade the card with the World Champion Trophy (so it'd have to show when you buy it :p)

~

Barov
05-15-2013, 03:00 PM
I'm also going to commit the cardinal sin of replying despite skipping pages 31-57. As such I'm going to begin with a question.

Has anyone thought about the "double back"? Again please forgive the attempt to generalize, but to me it seems that to please the collectors we need rarity and to please the gamers we need availability. If it were possible to mark that a particular card belonged to a "later printing" on the double back then the "original" cards lacking such a designation would be rare. The "later printing" cards can remain available indefinitely.

This allows for rarity without creating alternate art/foil/whatever sets which I've always seen as just more to collect. It also allows for both hard core and casual collectors. There will be those that want the thrill of hunting down and owning "original" cards as well as those who would enjoy having a full set regardless of printing. I have purposely not defined "later printing" and "original", but the set rotation plan does suggest an appropriate time to mark the transition.



Someone has mentioned the idea of designationing First Edition cards, under the hope they would be worth more in the AH in the future.

Turtlewing
05-15-2013, 03:04 PM
Someone has mentioned the idea of designationing First Edition cards, under the hope they would be worth more in the AH in the future.

I don't know how successful that would be by itself. Most of the value of a card will be driven by the demand for it by people planning to use it in play. The "gotta have 'em all" demographic is a lot smaller and less able to drive demand.

Maybe if only First edition cards level up to foils? That way you also get the vanity crowd.

jai151
05-15-2013, 03:39 PM
I don't know how successful that would be by itself. Most of the value of a card will be driven by the demand for it by people planning to use it in play. The "gotta have 'em all" demographic is a lot smaller and less able to drive demand.

Maybe if only First edition cards level up to foils? That way you also get the vanity crowd.

Not entirely accurate. For example, an Alpha Black Lotus, Beta Black Lotus, and Unlimited Black Lotus are each worth up to double that of the later set (IE A worth 2x B, B worth 2x U). However that's both edition and rarity driving the price, not just edition.

Even among the folks who only want a card for use in play, there is a desire to have the rarer variant card to play with. However if all sets are always available, the "first edition" variant is actually saying, "This is the more common card."

Vibraxus
05-15-2013, 06:14 PM
Not entirely accurate. For example, an Alpha Black Lotus, Beta Black Lotus, and Unlimited Black Lotus are each worth up to double that of the later set (IE A worth 2x B, B worth 2x U). However that's both edition and rarity driving the price, not just edition.

Even among the folks who only want a card for use in play, there is a desire to have the rarer variant card to play with. However if all sets are always available, the "first edition" variant is actually saying, "This is the more common card."

This makes sense, however if I can "level" is a first ed card to like (just speculating) like alt art version 5 foil by using it in PvE since I had the thing for 2 years...NOW it has some serious collector price to it.

Its ability in PvP wont change (from what I understand) but who doesnt want every alt art of every card? ;)

WalkTheAgony
05-15-2013, 07:22 PM
Set need to go ''Out of Print'' otherwise the card value and the overall collector feel will decreased drastically.

Cailin_Coilleach
05-15-2013, 08:45 PM
If it were possible to mark that a particular card belonged to a "later printing" on the double back then the "original" cards lacking such a designation would be rare. The "later printing" cards can remain available indefinitely.
Don't we already have that at the bottom of each card? "SERIES X/Y", as in card X out of Y of series SERIES. Later reprints would have a different series' name.

WWKnight
05-15-2013, 10:42 PM
I don't know how successful that would be by itself. Most of the value of a card will be driven by the demand for it by people planning to use it in play. The "gotta have 'em all" demographic is a lot smaller and less able to drive demand.

Maybe if only First edition cards level up to foils? That way you also get the vanity crowd.

And first edition is only available in PvP, future editions cannot be used in legacy tournaments or rated pvp games. If there is rated raiding, it could be excluded from that. So basically it creates a PROXY card that new players can use to mess about with friends. Proxies dont break the economy. For all intents and purposes, only the first edition would have any value.

Fireblast
05-15-2013, 10:48 PM
And first edition is only available in PvP, future editions cannot be used in legacy tournaments or rated pvp games. If there is rated raiding, it could be excluded from that. So basically it creates a PROXY card that new players can use to mess about with friends. Proxies dont break the economy. For all intents and purposes, only the first edition would have any value.

If players can use proxies instead of buying the cards, the cards' demand lowers, so its value.

~

WWKnight
05-16-2013, 03:51 AM
But they CANT use proxies in tournaments. the PvE market will not be demanding any investment. Its all free, so no-one will be spending money on PvP cards to finsih PvE. The worth you want from your PvP cards for legacy tournaments will still stay with the card, just like the real world you are basing your model off.

People use proxies for Black lotus to muck about with friends. Black lotus hasnt dropped in value.

Daer
05-16-2013, 05:40 AM
If you can use a card for PVP and PVE it has higher value than the same card that can only be used for PVP because there is a separate PVE version of the card.

Tyranth
05-16-2013, 05:52 AM
A solution may be to rotate sets out. But at holiday times or anniversary dates allow the sale of small quantities of those boosters. You would need to limit the purchase quantity per transaction so one person doesn't get them all. You could also add some older sets as draft choices for a limited time. If you did this and added a few more card sinks to help remove excess older cards, I believe most would be happy.

Turtlewing
05-16-2013, 06:31 AM
And first edition is only available in PvP, future editions cannot be used in legacy tournaments or rated pvp games. If there is rated raiding, it could be excluded from that. So basically it creates a PROXY card that new players can use to mess about with friends. Proxies dont break the economy. For all intents and purposes, only the first edition would have any value.

That's a terrible idea. You may as well just take the set out of print and avoid all the complaints about cards that were bought but can't be used.