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View Full Version : Main Issues With $250 Tier Stretch Goal



Madican
05-22-2013, 10:54 PM
Because I'm tired of people slinging insults around I'm going to list the major points I have with the new stretch goal as it pertain to the buffing of the $250 tiers. Each point will have a reason why I consider it an issue, and you are all free to debate me on them in a civilized manner. However, if you choose to instead dismiss it with more insults I'm just going to ignore you as you are what's wrong with the Internet's anonymity as a whole.

ISSUE 1 - Devaluing

Each of the $250 tiers aside from Pro Player received one free draft a week for a year. Others have said this does boosts them to be comparable to the Pro Player without devaluing it, but I disagree and here is why.

First off, this essentially makes the Pro Player bonus worthless for one full year because the others tiers also have it. Meanwhile the other tiers not only are making use of it but also their bonuses began right at the beginning of the game. The Dungeon Crawler not only gets the PP bonus, but also more loot. The Collector gets their cards. The Raid and Guild leaders have led charges into PvE. They get their bonus straight off while Pro Player has to wait an entire year before theirs begins to have value again. This is my primary reason why I'm against free drafts for the other tiers as compared to buffing their main objectives directly.

ISSUE 2 - Ignoring

Pro Player was left out of the mass-buff of the other $250 tiers, being ignored while its bonus was given to the other tiers for a year.

I actually have no issue with buffing the other tiers, as I do think that most of them could have used some, aside from Dungeon Crawler. I'm not a supporter of the ones who want something special for the PP tier. I do, however, think that handing the other tiers the PP bonus was the wrong decision. I think they should have boosted the other tiers based on their offerings, not copying another one. Collectors get an additional card (allowing a full set right off the bat of their bonus), Dungeon Crawlers get an extra life for dungeons, Guild Masters have a bonus to Keep Defense (just an idea), Raid Leaders have +x% more chance to make the boss drop a legendary, stuff like that.

ISSUE 3 - Insufficient

Some think that the legendary stretch goal just wasn't legendary enough, discounting the tablet bit as that's not relevant to this discussion. They point to how the uncommon before this one gave GK 50 Set 2 boosters while this one was only 15.

This is the point I take issue with. Not every stretch goal needs a bonus to you the player, that's something I agree with. Grand King got boosters last time? Well now everyone gets some! The $250 tiers got buffs, aside from the PP tier which was left out, but while I take umbrage with the buff they gave I do agree that something was needed to make them attractive.

So, those are the three main points I've seen people use against this stretch goal. If anyone has any others, with reasons, please feel free to add to the list. If you disagree then please say why in a logical fashion instead of flaming, that goes for both sides of the issue.

Yasi
05-22-2013, 10:58 PM
The rewards are just incentives. They don't have to make it fair in the first place.

I don't see how people think they're entitled to something from making a pledge on kickstarter?

Sci3nce
05-22-2013, 10:59 PM
Valid Points, and +1 for keeping things civil.

Gorgol
05-22-2013, 11:02 PM
The smart way to do it would have been every $250+ tier account gets 1 additional draft per week for 1 year
This means PP and GK+ get their lifetime one and one more per week for one year.

Yasi
05-22-2013, 11:03 PM
How about they give 1000 Set 1&2 Booster Packs to every tier? Maybe even throw in free drafting for life on all the tiers. Will that make everyone happy?

Liokae
05-22-2013, 11:04 PM
How about they give 1000 Set 1&2 Booster Packs to every tier? Will that make everyone happy?

Of course not, because the petulant whining is all about not being MORE valuable than the silly plebs.

Madican
05-22-2013, 11:06 PM
The smart way to do it would have been every $250+ tier account gets 1 additional draft per week for 1 year

This means PP and GK+ get their lifetime one and one more per week for one year.

This actually does seem like a good idea and could easily be handled to not benefit the ones who stacked simply by keeping the "non-stackable" clause to it. That way it's not overly-benefiting the stackers but it's also not punishing the single pledgers, even while it's still making the other tiers more interesting.

stephenhii
05-22-2013, 11:07 PM
The smart way to do it would have been every $250+ tier account gets 1 additional draft per week for 1 year
This means PP and GK+ get their lifetime one and one more per week for one year.

Hey, yes!

Yasi
05-22-2013, 11:07 PM
Of course not, because the petulant whining is all about not being MORE valuable than the silly plebs.

Fine...how about taking all the rewards from the lower tiers and giving it to the $250 pledge people. That way the disparity between the lower tiers and the higher one will be even greater.

Kitt
05-22-2013, 11:08 PM
This stretch goal is designed to get the remaining 250$ tiers sold. Obviously they weren't attracting people to pledge there so they added the one thing that has proven to sell tiers. You already have your bonus you pledged to gk or pro to get that bonus why do you care if the other 250 tiers get it?

More people pledging is a good thing and if all is needed is 1 draft a week for free to get the remaining 250$ tiers sold so be it. It doesn't devalue what I or you have it just improve the value for them. Be happy with what you have since gk and pp are still a huge value and will pay for themselves in time.

Yasi
05-22-2013, 11:11 PM
you already have your bonus you pledged to gk or pro to get that bonus why do you care if the other 250 tiers get it?

Doesn't devalue what i or you have it just improve the value for them.

a-fucking-men

Madican
05-22-2013, 11:12 PM
This stretch goal is designed to get the remaining 250$ tiers sold. Obviously they weren't attracting people to pledge there so they added the one thing that has proven to sell tiers. You already have your bonus you pledged to gk or pro to get that bonus why do you care if the other 250 tiers get it?

More people pledging is a good thing and if all is needed is 1 draft a week for free to get the remaining 250$ tiers sold so be it. It doesn't devalue what I or you have it just improve the value for them. Be happy with what you have since gk and pp are still a huge value and will pay for themselves in time.

But my primary issue is that won't start until a year has passed. Single PP pledgers will not start to see their benefits until well into the life of the game. That's not right to me; in fact it's outright punishing an entire tier.

A Grand King has all of the benefits of the tiers, PvE and PvP. A single PP pledger only has that one bonus and it's been negated for a year. I see a problem with that.

ursa23
05-22-2013, 11:16 PM
The trouble is that this isn't a zero sum game. When others get something, it doesn't make what you have worthless. What you have is still a great deal, others getting a good deal doesn't subtract from that.

Yasi
05-22-2013, 11:17 PM
A Grand King has all of the benefits of the tiers, PvE and PvP. A single PP pledger only has that one bonus and it's been negated for a year. I see a problem with that.

I see your point. However, at the end of the day, if they cater to every tiers, it'll just be a 1-up competition where the rewards get more ridiculous as more people voice their issues.

Kitt
05-22-2013, 11:17 PM
But my primary issue is that won't start until a year has passed. Single PP pledgers will not start to see their benefits until well into the life of the game. That's not right to me; in fact it's outright punishing an entire tier.

A Grand King has all of the benefits of the tiers, PvE and PvP. A single PP pledger only has that one bonus and it's been negated for a year. I see a problem with that.

No one is stopping you from going "down" to the other tiers. In fact watch how fast your pp will disappear if you do. The simple fact that you 250$ pledge will pay for itself over time and then some should make you giggle with joy. What other tgc has ever been able to give you that much for so little an initial investment and none of the guarantees

ru2dvs
05-22-2013, 11:20 PM
Ok, I'll bite. I'll give some analogies for why I think the first 2 are particularly bad arguments.

ISSUE 1 - Devaluing

If they build a well in another country to give someone else drinking water, my own access to tap water isn't somehow "lessened."
If you give other people drafts, it doesn't somehow take your drafts away.

Unless the value of the free draft to you is that others didn't have it, you haven't lost anything.

ISSUE 2 - Ignoring

If I bought a box of chocolates, and the next day the store had a special: "Buy gummy bears, get two pieces of chocolates free." Could I legitimately go to the store and ask them to give me some gummies with my chocolate?

When they say no and offer to refund my chocolates so that I could buy the gummies with the two pieces of chocolates instead, should I feel that this is unfair? If I decide to keep my chocolates, does it make sense for me to continue complaining?

Qorsair
05-22-2013, 11:23 PM
Ok, I'll bite. I'll give some analogies for why I think the first 2 are particularly bad arguments.

ISSUE 1 - Devaluing

If they build a well in another country to give someone else drinking water, my own access to tap water isn't somehow "lessened."
If you give other people drafts, it doesn't somehow take your drafts away.

Unless the value of the free draft to you is that others didn't have it, you haven't lost anything.

ISSUE 2 - Ignoring

If I bought a box of chocolates, and the next day the store had a special: "Buy gummy bears, get two pieces of chocolates free." Could I legitimately go to the store and ask them to give me some gummies with my chocolate?

When they say no and offer to refund my chocolates so that I could buy the gummies with the two pieces of chocolates instead, should I feel that this is unfair? If I decide to keep my chocolates, does it make sense for me to continue complaining?

Very nicely stated points.

thereck
05-22-2013, 11:30 PM
The rewards are just incentives. They don't have to make it fair in the first place.

I don't see how people think they're entitled to something from making a pledge on kickstarter?

some people make decisions based on projected value, some don't. If your brain doesn't work that way, it doesn't mean those of us whose brain does are acting "entititled" Would it make you unhappy if they got more? probably not. Would it make you happier if the forums were filled with happy customers? probably. So you're fighting your own player base because?

Boogaloo
05-22-2013, 11:30 PM
Ok, I'll bite. I'll give some analogies for why I think the first 2 are particularly bad arguments.

ISSUE 1 - Devaluing

If they build a well in another country to give someone else drinking water, my own access to tap water isn't somehow "lessened."
If you give other people drafts, it doesn't somehow take your drafts away.

Unless the value of the free draft to you is that others didn't have it, you haven't lost anything.

That's not entirely true, since a big part of free drafts is the free packs/cards that you get out of them.

If there are more rare packs/card in circulation, then the price of those commodities will in fact be lessened.

To use your analogy, if I have a well and use it not only for my supplies but also sell some of the surplus (in this case, trading some of the winnings and drafted cards from the tournaments), then I am indeed harmed if someone digs up another well and starts to likewise sell water - not only because they won't buy from me, but because they'll also now be my competitor and drive down the price of water in the area.

I knew my business degree would come in handy one day!

Yasi
05-22-2013, 11:32 PM
That's not entirely true, since a big part of free drafts is the free packs/cards that you get out of them.

If there are more rare packs/card in circulation, then the price of those commodities will in fact be lessened.

To use your analogy, if I have a well and use it not only for my supplies but also sell some of the surplus (in this case, trading some of the winnings and drafted cards from the tournaments), then I am indeed harmed if someone digs up another well and starts to likewise sell water - not only because they won't buy from me, but because they'll also now be my competitor and drive down the price of water in the area.

I knew my business degree would come in handy one day!

Haha, that's adorable.

ru2dvs
05-22-2013, 11:38 PM
I knew my business degree would come in handy one day!

And I knew there was a reason I got a C in the Econ for Engineers course :) Nice observation, and I think that's a legitimate argument.

ForgedSol
05-22-2013, 11:38 PM
That's not entirely true, since a big part of free drafts is the free packs/cards that you get out of them.

If there are more rare packs/card in circulation, then the price of those commodities will in fact be lessened.

To use your analogy, if I have a well and use it not only for my supplies but also sell some of the surplus (in this case, trading some of the winnings and drafted cards from the tournaments), then I am indeed harmed if someone digs up another well and starts to likewise sell water - not only because they won't buy from me, but because they'll also now be my competitor and drive down the price of water in the area.

I knew my business degree would come in handy one day!

So you're saying you don't want more people drafting. You don't want more people interested in the PvP side of the game, which will help the game grow and be sustainable and profitable for Cryptozoic to keep making more sets and adding more features and allowing you to keep drafting for free once a week, and allow your digital cards to retain value.

The smaller the community, the less likely the game will succeed, the more likely every tier becomes worthless.

Edit: Not to mention the greater the interest in PvP, the more they can support constructed play, and the more specific cards will go up in value, which will offset the fact that there are more in the wild. On the PvP side of things, if there is no interest in constructed, then cards have no value.

thereck
05-22-2013, 11:42 PM
Ok, I'll bite. I'll give some analogies for why I think the first 2 are particularly bad arguments.

ISSUE 1 - Devaluing

If they build a well in another country to give someone else drinking water, my own access to tap water isn't somehow "lessened."
If you give other people drafts, it doesn't somehow take your drafts away.

Unless the value of the free draft to you is that others didn't have it, you haven't lost anything.

ISSUE 2 - Ignoring

If I bought a box of chocolates, and the next day the store had a special: "Buy gummy bears, get two pieces of chocolates free." Could I legitimately go to the store and ask them to give me some gummies with my chocolate?

When they say no and offer to refund my chocolates so that I could buy the gummies with the two pieces of chocolates instead, should I feel that this is unfair? If I decide to keep my chocolates, does it make sense for me to continue complaining?

logical strawmen nothing to see here

nicosharp
05-22-2013, 11:43 PM
That's not entirely true, since a big part of free drafts is the free packs/cards that you get out of them.

If there are more rare packs/card in circulation, then the price of those commodities will in fact be lessened.

To use your analogy, if I have a well and use it not only for my supplies but also sell some of the surplus (in this case, trading some of the winnings and drafted cards from the tournaments), then I am indeed harmed if someone digs up another well and starts to likewise sell water - not only because they won't buy from me, but because they'll also now be my competitor and drive down the price of water in the area.

I knew my business degree would come in handy one day!
Your monopolistic ways will only get you regulated by the cryptozoic government. You should be ashamed, and support free trade/perfect competition!

Genocidal
05-22-2013, 11:44 PM
That's not entirely true, since a big part of free drafts is the free packs/cards that you get out of them.

If there are more rare packs/card in circulation, then the price of those commodities will in fact be lessened.

To use your analogy, if I have a well and use it not only for my supplies but also sell some of the surplus (in this case, trading some of the winnings and drafted cards from the tournaments), then I am indeed harmed if someone digs up another well and starts to likewise sell water - not only because they won't buy from me, but because they'll also now be my competitor and drive down the price of water in the area.

I knew my business degree would come in handy one day!

Spot on, I'm glad someone else understands this. Fairly safe assumption that at least some of the PvE pledgers have no interest in playing draft tourneys and will be rare drafting as well.

Madican
05-22-2013, 11:49 PM
The well analogy given is a strawman; fundamentally flawed. I'd liken it more to paying the government for the right to draw water from the well once a week for free, then seeing the government give that same right for a year to the people who can also get twice the food from stores or open a business, which I cannot do.

ru2dvs
05-22-2013, 11:51 PM
The smaller the community, the less likely the game will succeed, the more likely every tier becomes worthless.

Agreed 100%. Conversely, the bigger the audience, the more all of the KS exclusives are worth. Which is why I really think the legendary announcement is a net positive. Tablets = bigger audience. More KS pledgers + drafters = more people who are invested = more people who will tell their friends.

Plus, it would suck being stuck in a queue for 8 hours because there's no one on :).

ru2dvs
05-22-2013, 11:54 PM
The well analogy given is a strawman; fundamentally flawed. I'd liken it more to paying the government for the right to draw water from the well once a week for free, then seeing the government give that same right for a year to the people who can also get twice the food from stores or open a business, which I cannot do.

But you can choose to switch. Well, until tax day anyways.

thereck
05-22-2013, 11:56 PM
The well analogy given is a strawman; fundamentally flawed. I'd liken it more to paying the government for the right to draw water from the well once a week for free, then seeing the government give that same right for a year to the people who can also get twice the food from stores or open a business, which I cannot do.

we have a winner, don't forget to add that major banks are telling you to sell them your water rights because they can afford the long term capitol investment, and convincing normal people that it's better for the community if you just went out of business and left the town.

thereck
05-22-2013, 11:57 PM
But you can choose to switch. Well, until tax day anyways.

what if I don't want to be a business man, I liked my job.

Tinuvas
05-23-2013, 12:02 AM
ISSUE 1 - Devaluing
...this essentially makes the Pro Player bonus worthless for one full year because the others tiers also have it...


I disagree completely that the PP tier has no value for that year. You get a years worth of free drafts. 'But so does everyone else' you say. Yes, but so do you. The very idea of free drafts was so incredibly awesome that people bought not one, or two, but up to 4 of the same level! To argue (debate, whatever, I mean argue in an intelligent, not emotional way) that you lose value because someone else gained value is only true in a zero sum game where there is only a winner and a loser. It views the world from the standpoint of limited resources (I get an extra loaf of bread and therefore you must have less), and by definition, the PP crowning feature is unlimited. The other tiers getting more doesn't lessen what PP has at all.

You could argue that PP DID lose out in the Legendary reveal because it wasn't buffed along with/as much as the other tiers, but that assumes that the Legendary reveal had or should have had that purpose, which is a fairly heavy assumption. Basing this argument on what you THOUGHT the purpose of the Legendary reveal was is shaky ground at best. The true purpose was whatever Crypto wanted it to be. If I read you correctly, you think they are just looking to make more money. I choose to see their purpose as attempting to do things in the best interests of the future of the game and community. There was no guarantee at any point that the Legendary reveal would give any one individual what they wanted. I was hoping that a RMAH or $ prizes on tourneys was the reveal. It was not, but I'll bet it would have been had it been possible. I think that they are giving us what they can without hurting the game. It is a choice of perspective.



ISSUE 2 - Ignoring
...I think they should have boosted the other tiers based on their offerings, not copying another one...


I was actually rather impressed with their efforts at 'balancing' the other tiers, and not at all offended. I think it fairly safe to say that the free lifetime drafts was far and away the favorite feature at the $250 level (unless I'm way wrong about the cool PP only tourney :p). The suggestions given (boosting the other tiers within their arena rather than with a 'cheap copy' of PP drafts), ignore the accepted idea that PvE isn't as desirable an arena right now regardless of the PvE perks. If free drafts were what people wanted, give them free drafts!

One of the main purposes of the Legendary reveal (based on my deductions, which could be way off...but I don't think so) was to keep the pledge drive going. Make the PvE tiers more desirable by adding the obviously valued free drafts option instead of trying to add an inferior option to an already inferior tier. It takes nothing away from the PP tiers (one years worth of drafts may end up monetarily equivalent for those who switch games, but there is nothing like the emotion of KNOWING that you will ALWAYS have another draft available next week...that emotion has value that cannot be matched by a single year's worth of drafts) except perhaps the illusion that they are unique, and that only if viewed with a negative aspect. A different (and more fulfilling IMHO) view is that the buff to everyone else is an increase in the number of drafters and a richer, deeper game for all. Crypto chose to go with the proven feature. I applaud them for that and agree with their decision.



ISSUE 3 - Insufficient

Some think that the legendary stretch goal just wasn't legendary enough, discounting the tablet bit as that's not relevant to this discussion.


Actually, as the tablet functionality was the titular aspect of the Legendary reveal, it is more than relevant to a discussion about how Legendary the Legendary was. To remove it from the conversation would be akin to taking away the main dish of a meal and then saying that the vegetables didn't fill you up. As a former programmer, I have a small grasp on how difficult certain elements of the game are to program...I think. I am in no way confident about this, but based on my background, Tablet support truly is a resource heavy task, and not one to be taken lightly. It's effect on the game and the player pool could be game making/breaking. A truly Legendary task relative to the overall projects direction and momentum. A challenge, and one that Crypto took up with fervor and passion!

As for the 'vegetables', Let's look at things from a different perspective: When I first backed this Kickstarter (day 3 IIRC) I did so at PP right from the start. I received the baseline prizes as explained on the website. Since then I have received (or had it promised anyway), and this is IN ADDITION TO my baseline prize set:
The gear for ALL of the original PvE and PvP cards, some of which is legendary to begin with
PvE card Orson's dream with equipment
PvE card Spectral Assassin with equipment
PvE card Moment of Glory with equipment
PvE card Crowd Roars with equipment
PvE card Ninja Training with equipment
Mercenary Champions Glorfenblort, Bebo, The cardboard tube samurai, and Aethynia (my personal favorite so far)
And extra copy of ALL of the PvE KS exclusive cards
An automatic Primal Pack (Probably the ONLY pack I will crack outside of a draft, and boy am I looking forward to it)
Chances for my base set of packs to be primal packs (ok, I'll probably crack those too)
5 MORE boosters from set 1
3 months of the VIP program (or 12 MORE packs)
3 free drafts
2 random pieces of legendary equipment
The ONLY 2 color starter deck the game will begin with, complete with an awesome dragon
1 of each crafting material
Cool '1 million dollars' sleeves
Some set 2(!) boosters based on my PP tier backing level.

Ummm, I'd call that legendary. Truly. You could easily point at the boosters from set 2 and say, "but I ONLY got those AT the Legendary reveal", but then Crypto didn't have to give us any of the above items, or could have saved ALL of them for the Legendary reveal. Regardless of when they were given, I personally have received far more than I signed up for. I strongly feel that to not show gratitude for what we have received from Crypto here is symptomatic of pride and greed. I for one thank Crypto deeply for giving us so much. I can't wait to bring my family to this game.

So I disagree with your point of view for the reasons stated above. I have attempted to explain with logic and without negative emotion. I have not resorted to name-calling, character assassination, or any other flamitory practice that I'm aware of. Having done so, I look forward to any reply you may have in the same vein.

SacrificialToast
05-23-2013, 12:05 AM
what if I don't want to be a business man, I liked my job.

Then don't worry about not getting bonuses you evidently still don't think are worth it. You'll get your water as long as you stay. They'll get their water for a time, and then they'll have to pay if they want to continue. You clearly still consider the no time limit arrangement to be more valuable than the single year deal. That's because it was always so much better than the others to begin with.

Madican
05-23-2013, 12:07 AM
Finally someone uses actual logic to carry on a discussion. Unfortunately my reply is going to have to wait until tomorrow as I waited too long and it is much too late here for me to get my thoughts straight.

Tinuvas
05-23-2013, 12:11 AM
That's not entirely true, since a big part of free drafts is the free packs/cards that you get out of them.

If there are more rare packs/card in circulation, then the price of those commodities will in fact be lessened.

To use your analogy, if I have a well and use it not only for my supplies but also sell some of the surplus (in this case, trading some of the winnings and drafted cards from the tournaments), then I am indeed harmed if someone digs up another well and starts to likewise sell water - not only because they won't buy from me, but because they'll also now be my competitor and drive down the price of water in the area.

I knew my business degree would come in handy one day!

You assume that the demand will remain constant. One purpose of the Legendary reveal was to increase the player base (and the adjustment of the $250 tiers was specifically designed for that very purpose) which would create a higher demand. To continue the analogy, more water would bring more people to settle the area, balancing the supply/demand and the price. But profits would rise because cost of transportation would be less as distance between customers would be less (Not sure how this sentence applies to Hex, but it works in the analogy). And I don't even have a business degree!

Tinuvas
05-23-2013, 12:16 AM
The well analogy given is a strawman; fundamentally flawed. I'd liken it more to paying the government for the right to draw water from the well once a week for free, then seeing the government give that same right for a year to the people who can also get twice the food from stores or open a business, which I cannot do.

Ah but you have an infinitely renewable contract to continue the water drawing, while the others have a hard, non-renewable 1 year contract. Their food and businesses may be desirable, but you chose the infinite water supply. And you can still choose the food, business, and capped water supply if you desire to switch. You have more options, and nothing has been taken from you. I see not where you have been stolen from.

MasterPlan
05-23-2013, 12:22 AM
I disagree completely that the PP tier has no value for that year. You get a years worth of free drafts. 'But so does everyone else' you say. Yes, but so do you. The very idea of free drafts was so incredibly awesome that people bought not one, or two, but up to 4 of the same level! To argue (debate, whatever, I mean argue in an intelligent, not emotional way) that you lose value because someone else gained value is only true in a zero sum game where there is only a winner and a loser. It views the world from the standpoint of limited resources (I get an extra loaf of bread and therefore you must have less), and by definition, the PP crowning feature is unlimited. The other tiers getting more doesn't lessen what PP has at all.

You could argue that PP DID lose out in the Legendary reveal because it wasn't buffed along with/as much as the other tiers, but that assumes that the Legendary reveal had or should have had that purpose, which is a fairly heavy assumption. Basing this argument on what you THOUGHT the purpose of the Legendary reveal was is shaky ground at best. The true purpose was whatever Crypto wanted it to be. If I read you correctly, you think they are just looking to make more money. I choose to see their purpose as attempting to do things in the best interests of the future of the game and community. There was no guarantee at any point that the Legendary reveal would give any one individual what they wanted. I was hoping that a RMAH or $ prizes on tourneys was the reveal. It was not, but I'll bet it would have been had it been possible. I think that they are giving us what they can without hurting the game. It is a choice of perspective.



I was actually rather impressed with their efforts at 'balancing' the other tiers, and not at all offended. I think it fairly safe to say that the free lifetime drafts was far and away the favorite feature at the $250 level (unless I'm way wrong about the cool PP only tourney :p). The suggestions given (boosting the other tiers within their arena rather than with a 'cheap copy' of PP drafts), ignore the accepted idea that PvE isn't as desirable an arena right now regardless of the PvE perks. If free drafts were what people wanted, give them free drafts!

One of the main purposes of the Legendary reveal (based on my deductions, which could be way off...but I don't think so) was to keep the pledge drive going. Make the PvE tiers more desirable by adding the obviously valued free drafts option instead of trying to add an inferior option to an already inferior tier. It takes nothing away from the PP tiers (one years worth of drafts may end up monetarily equivalent for those who switch games, but there is nothing like the emotion of KNOWING that you will ALWAYS have another draft available next week...that emotion has value that cannot be matched by a single year's worth of drafts) except perhaps the illusion that they are unique, and that only if viewed with a negative aspect. A different (and more fulfilling IMHO) view is that the buff to everyone else is an increase in the number of drafters and a richer, deeper game for all. Crypto chose to go with the proven feature. I applaud them for that and agree with their decision.



Actually, as the tablet functionality was the titular aspect of the Legendary reveal, it is more than relevant to a discussion about how Legendary the Legendary was. To remove it from the conversation would be akin to taking away the main dish of a meal and then saying that the vegetables didn't fill you up. As a former programmer, I have a small grasp on how difficult certain elements of the game are to program...I think. I am in no way confident about this, but based on my background, Tablet support truly is a resource heavy task, and not one to be taken lightly. It's effect on the game and the player pool could be game making/breaking. A truly Legendary task relative to the overall projects direction and momentum. A challenge, and one that Crypto took up with fervor and passion!

As for the 'vegetables', Let's look at things from a different perspective: When I first backed this Kickstarter (day 3 IIRC) I did so at PP right from the start. I received the baseline prizes as explained on the website. Since then I have received (or had it promised anyway), and this is IN ADDITION TO my baseline prize set:
The gear for ALL of the original PvE and PvP cards, some of which is legendary to begin with
PvE card Orson's dream with equipment
PvE card Spectral Assassin with equipment
PvE card Moment of Glory with equipment
PvE card Crowd Roars with equipment
PvE card Ninja Training with equipment
Mercenary Champions Glorfenblort, Bebo, The cardboard tube samurai, and Aethynia (my personal favorite so far)
And extra copy of ALL of the PvE KS exclusive cards
An automatic Primal Pack (Probably the ONLY pack I will crack outside of a draft, and boy am I looking forward to it)
Chances for my base set of packs to be primal packs (ok, I'll probably crack those too)
5 MORE boosters from set 1
3 months of the VIP program (or 12 MORE packs)
3 free drafts
2 random pieces of legendary equipment
The ONLY 2 color starter deck the game will begin with, complete with an awesome dragon
1 of each crafting material
Cool '1 million dollars' sleeves
Some set 2(!) boosters based on my PP tier backing level.

Ummm, I'd call that legendary. Truly. You could easily point at the boosters from set 2 and say, "but I ONLY got those AT the Legendary reveal", but then Crypto didn't have to give us any of the above items, or could have saved ALL of them for the Legendary reveal. Regardless of when they were given, I personally have received far more than I signed up for. I strongly feel that to not show gratitude for what we have received from Crypto here is symptomatic of pride and greed. I for one thank Crypto deeply for giving us so much. I can't wait to bring my family to this game.

So I disagree with your point of view for the reasons stated above. I have attempted to explain with logic and without negative emotion. I have not resorted to name-calling, character assassination, or any other flamitory practice that I'm aware of. Having done so, I look forward to any reply you may have in the same vein.

I think you deserve a Uruunaz plushie! well thought out and presented argument.

Tinuvas
05-23-2013, 12:23 AM
what if I don't want to be a business man, I liked my job.

If you like your job, and are satisfied with your contract, then why complain when nothing has been taken from you? You still have your infinite water contract, and many other perks besides. To complain when you have had none of your rights and privileges taken away, and just because others have received more, especially when you can have that more if you desire it, smells of pride to me. I am loving this analogy. It's fun to tear it apart further after it's been torn apart by others.

In all seriousness though, an analogy is there not to prove a point, but to explain a point of view. If you understand the point of view, but disagree with it, it's always easy to tear the analogy apart, but fruitless logically, if still fun!

thereck
05-23-2013, 12:35 AM
Then don't worry about not getting bonuses you evidently still don't think are worth it. You'll get your water as long as you stay. They'll get their water for a time, and then they'll have to pay if they want to continue. You clearly still consider the no time limit arrangement to be more valuable than the single year deal. That's because it was always so much better than the others to begin with.

I think there is an inherent misunderstanding that an increase in risk without return on investment will cause a lot of well owners to sell to banks who will not be active members in your local economy, and will instead use their control of your wells to take value out of the towns economy.

Xexist
05-23-2013, 12:37 AM
One of the main purposes of the Legendary reveal (based on my deductions, which could be way off...but I don't think so) was to keep the pledge drive going. Make the PvE tiers more desirable by adding the obviously valued free drafts option instead of trying to add an inferior option to an already inferior tier. .

This post is probably one of the best counter arguments I have read so kudos for that. This specific comment that I left in the quote is what I wanted to comment on though. You are right that what they did was for reasons largely to do with selling out the other tiers/make them more desirable and to keep the pledge drive going. However it seemed to me to be marketed as a bonus, a thank you for pledging so much money. If adding those bonuses help the tiers sell out it should be done regardless of if we hit that bonus or not, in fact if we DONT hit that bonus, how many of those pledges will probably be reversed? A significant amount would be my guess (of course I could be wrong on that). Same with the tablet. If it makes financial sense to have tablet support (ie they expect it will bring in a larger customer base and therefore more sales opportunities) they should do it regardless of how much extra kickstarter funding they get (I realize the funding can help speed up the process though).

What does that leave us with? A few booster packs as a legendary bonus.

So if the bonuses are supposed to help them get additional funding, then so be it, they are a business after all. However is the bonus for them or for us? If its only for them, then why should I get excited by it?

ru2dvs
05-23-2013, 12:46 AM
You assume that the demand will remain constant. One purpose of the Legendary reveal was to increase the player base (and the adjustment of the $250 tiers was specifically designed for that very purpose) which would create a higher demand.

You know, this is actually the most intriguing question about increasing these free drafts. The intriguing thing is, the value you "get" for giving free drafts for other $250 tiers is dependent on two things:

- Do you draft, or play constructed? (To be precise, you also need to know the % of $ you spend on both).
- Do you think that increasing the # of KS backers and funding will significantly increase the total number of players in the system.

1. Draft or Constructed?

Assuming a drafter wants more drafts, and a constructed/pve player wants cheaper singles:

The drafter wants less drafts (for less singles on the market).
The constructed/pve wants more drafts.

2. Does giving away free drafts increase the player base?

In the absence of free drafts, there is some equilibrium ratio between drafters:constructed players, and that determines the average price you get for the cards you drafted.

Giving away free drafts decreases that value. The exact impact depends on the number of free drafts in the system, and the total population of the system. Bigger player bases will be less sensitive to free drafts.

Suppose you believed that HEX will gain no additional non-KS customers by giving away drafts. Then clearly there's way more drafts in the system. The move clearly benefits constructed players.

Suppose you believed the opposite: that HEX will be wildly successful because of these free drafts --> The player pool increase might be sufficient to improve the value of drafted cards, benefiting drafters.

Clearly the truth lies somewhere in the middle. And I think a log of people won't be 100% draft or 100% constructed or whatever.

The Point

The impact of adding some free drafts as an inticement for additional KS backers is not a trivial question. And if we were to judge it purely by VALUE it becomes a very INDIVIDUAL choice. If we allow people to make a judgement on the importance of tablet or # of KS backers to the success of the game, we can't even make an argument on the same factbase.

I stand by my position that improving the overall numbers of the game is ultimately better for us all. And I do think the only way Hex can survive long term is by having way way more players than free drafters. In this case, from a value perspective, I don't think adding a bunch of free drafts will hurt me one way or another. But I think it's valid for others to come to a different conclusion.

tl;dr: The question of whether +free drafts hurts a PT/GK is complex, depends on unknown facts, and is dependent on your preferences as a drafter/constructed player. Let's just all get along. :)

Mavian
05-23-2013, 12:52 AM
Spot on, I'm glad someone else understands this. Fairly safe assumption that at least some of the PvE pledgers have no interest in playing draft tourneys and will be rare drafting as well.

They'd be silly then. x2 King gives more pure cards out of the gate. 1 year of draft is 156 boosters. Add the 155 from the tier, 311 plus the 15 Set 2. x2 king gets 310, plus 30 tier 2. The only 250 tier that pure card values it out, is the Guild Master and you gift the 90 packs to yourself.

So if someone JUST wants the cards and isn't interested in the draft, they'd be far smarter to grab the x2 King.

Not to mention the huge misconception about rare drafting anyways. The minimum amount someone can rare draft is the 3 rares from the packs THEY crack. Most people pick the rares from their packs, even if they don't plan to use them. It's called "Hate drafting", you don't want to give your opponent a potentially powerful card. If a rare is passed 9/10 it's a bad rare anyways.

Another thing that's missed is the Pro Tier will retain its value past a year. As in, if the game is good, you always have the option of selling the account to interested players. It will resale far higher than the PvE tiers after a year. PvE tier boosts only reduce the time to grind ratio. Pro tier will give a static dollar ratio saved per year, so it will retain its secondary market value at a far higher rate.

Genocidal
05-23-2013, 01:00 AM
They'd be silly then. x2 King gives more pure cards out of the gate. 1 year of draft is 156 boosters. Add the 155 from the tier, 311 plus the 15 Set 2. x2 king gets 310, plus 30 tier 2. The only 250 tier that pure card values it out, is the Guild Master and you gift the 90 packs to yourself.

So if someone JUST wants the cards and isn't interested in the draft, they'd be far smarter to grab the x2 King.

Not to mention the huge misconception about rare drafting anyways. The minimum amount someone can rare draft is the 3 rares from the packs THEY crack. Most people pick the rares from their packs, even if they don't plan to use them. It's called "Hate drafting", you don't want to give your opponent a potentially powerful card. If a rare is passed 9/10 it's a bad rare anyways.
The PvE pledgers in question would be grabbing the Dungeon Crawler presumably, which provides a benefit that you don't get from 2 King tiers, plus the added bonus of the drafts. All of the PvE tiers, in fact, provide a tangible, lifetime benefit that you can't get from stacking lower tiers.

I'm also familiar with the concept of hate drafting since I've played Magic for quite a while. If you're hate drafting a rare with your first pick instead of grabbing an uncommon or even common that's extremely good in the environment and fits your colors (assuming pack 2 or 3), well, you're going to have other problems in that draft. :)

Tinuvas
05-23-2013, 01:14 AM
This post is probably one of the best counter arguments I have read so kudos for that. This specific comment that I left in the quote is what I wanted to comment on though. You are right that what they did was for reasons largely to do with selling out the other tiers/make them more desirable and to keep the pledge drive going. However it seemed to me to be marketed as a bonus, a thank you for pledging so much money. If adding those bonuses help the tiers sell out it should be done regardless of if we hit that bonus or not, in fact if we DONT hit that bonus, how many of those pledges will probably be reversed? A significant amount would be my guess (of course I could be wrong on that). Same with the tablet. If it makes financial sense to have tablet support (ie they expect it will bring in a larger customer base and therefore more sales opportunities) they should do it regardless of how much extra kickstarter funding they get (I realize the funding can help speed up the process though).

What does that leave us with? A few booster packs as a legendary bonus.

So if the bonuses are supposed to help them get additional funding, then so be it, they are a business after all. However is the bonus for them or for us? If its only for them, then why should I get excited by it?

Oooo, response with class! I like it! As an aside, I live for a response like this. A response that disagrees with me and can back up their arguments well just turns my crank!

Anyway, the 'marketed as a bonus' comment actually hit me weird as I could see that point of view. I actually felt that way when I first saw the stretch goals, but I didn't nail it down as well as you. Putting the tier adjustment in the stretch goals instead of just adjusting the tiers felt...awkward... I'm going to go out on a limb a bit here, but my guess is that there was no easy way to handle the situation. I'm not familiar enough with Kickstarter to be fully familiar with it's culture, but from what I've heard, changing tiers mid-stream is a bit of a nono. I also think that we caught Crypto a bit flat-footed. Given time to think everything through, they probably would have been able to come up with a less awkward solution, but we consumers needed our update fix now, and we were paying to get it! At this point, we can look at the final picture as too small, or look at the complete 'pack' of stretch goals and see how far we've come. I choose the latter. A blip in their marketing doesn't ruin the whole pie. When the whole pack of stretch goals is looked at, it is legendary! It could make me nervous that they aren't perfect in their marketing. It doesn't. They'll pull it off. Note that this is coming from a guy who runs a small town trash company where every day is living on the edge of a knife for my business. Just because our business makes it work doesn't mean Crypto will, but I choose to trust them. And Cory. I think Cory's got it going on.

As for the tablets, there I disagree. Yes, it makes business sense to make tablet functionality reality. Tablets are a huge market and I would expect Crypto to get there as soon as they reasonably could. But there are huge (if abstract in the current situation) potential benefits to us getting tablet support.

1) Those here in the forums who want and can use it. Small base I think, but very much there. It is easy for those of us who don't have tablets to ignore those who do, but they will someday be drafting at a table you are playing, and without realizing they are even there, you will be glad they came.
2) The PC is dying. It will take many moons, but unless a game can jump to mobile, it's player pool is severely limited. By focusing NOW on the transition, Crypto is signalling that it is willing to stay with and ahead of the tech curve, removing a possible reason for backers to be nervous about their kickstart pledges. This is something to get excited about IMHO. I am worried that the Starcraft franchise (one of my all time favorite sci-fi storylines) won't make the jump, and it's finishing story will never be told.
3) A TCG REQUIRES a healthy growing community to survive. There is no way around it. Without it, my free weekly drafts last a year, maybe two. Tablet support is a signal that Crypto understands that and wants to ensure it's future player pool. That is exciting to me.

So yeah, you stare at a tablet and that's not a big deal. But the suggestion that Crypto is dedicated to making a game and including the features (difficult though they may be to implement) that will put them in good standing for the long game is truly exciting to me. THAT is what is legendary. Not more packs or drafts. We've got those. That's little stuff. Crypto is concerned about the GAME. And the legendary stretch goal is them inviting us on for the ride. 'Help us make a game structure that will last through the next 20 years'. That is what they're saying.
One caveat to the above is that I do think their marketing of the Legendary stretch goal fell a touch flat. Like the subscription ooops, VIP club, it took them 2 tries to get it right. But the core reasoning and logic is sound I think. It's just the fluff that doesn't hold up well.

Tinuvas
05-23-2013, 01:24 AM
You know, this is actually the most intriguing question about increasing these free drafts. The intriguing thing is, the value you "get" for giving free drafts for other $250 tiers is dependent on two things:

- Do you draft, or play constructed? (To be precise, you also need to know the % of $ you spend on both).
- Do you think that increasing the # of KS backers and funding will significantly increase the total number of players in the system.

I stand by my position that improving the overall numbers of the game is ultimately better for us all. And I do think the only way Hex can survive long term is by having way way more players than free drafters. In this case, from a value perspective, I don't think adding a bunch of free drafts will hurt me one way or another. But I think it's valid for others to come to a different conclusion.

tl;dr: The question of whether +free drafts hurts a PT/GK is complex, depends on unknown facts, and is dependent on your preferences as a drafter/constructed player. Let's just all get along. :)

Agreed! It is far to easy to come to a conclusion (as it appears I have done) based on 'facts' that aren't. The market that Hex is trying to break into is far to complex for a single thought process to fully cover. Let's just all get along is an excellent solution! I highly recommend it to all!

Mavian
05-23-2013, 01:32 AM
The PvE pledgers in question would be grabbing the Dungeon Crawler presumably, which provides a benefit that you don't get from 2 King tiers, plus the added bonus of the drafts. All of the PvE tiers, in fact, provide a tangible, lifetime benefit that you can't get from stacking lower tiers.

I'm also familiar with the concept of hate drafting since I've played Magic for quite a while. If you're hate drafting a rare with your first pick instead of grabbing an uncommon or even common that's extremely good in the environment and fits your colors (assuming pack 2 or 3), well, you're going to have other problems in that draft. :)

A tangible time based benefit for the most part. Only Collector and Raid Leader give exclusive cards. The rest only reduce the grind, which then becomes a question of time vs grind.

I've played Magic quite awhile myself. And at most drafts I've been at, mostly after FNM, I can count the number of times rares were passed. Everytime because they were junk rares. Passing a good rare to another who may be able to incorporate it into a deck for a common/uncommon which have a higher statistical probability of being passed is silly. Decent rares in draft ALWAYS get drafted, either by the opener or within one or two passes at most. Stop worrying about rare drafters. They'll exist with or without free drafts and are incalculable anyways, so is a vague point at best.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 02:01 AM
The other issue that's been overlooked is the simple fact that they're nearing the home stretch on their kickstart, and they managed to create a huge controversy that has people upset and angry. The simple fact that people are making topics on their forums and venting on the kickstart page about how they feel shafted lets you know that they fucked up. There should be no negativity here at all. None whatsoever. I'll say it again. The simple fact that you did something to piss people off means you fucked up.

There was so many different ways you could have done it. But the fact that you waited until the end, and did it in this manner, shows that you fucked up. It doesn't matter whether or not you or anyone else thinks it's fair. The simple fact is that people are fucking pissed. Way to devalue your product. Look at the numbers for yesterday. They're the lowest they've been since the beginning. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure most of the money from yesterday was GK selling out before the announcement.

The other thing that pissed people off, and had my friend personally worried, is that they kept it a secret until the end. They didn't lay it out there and say "Okay guys, this is what we're going to be giving you if we hit this mark." The fact of the matter is they waited until the end, caused a scenario where people scrambled for X and Y, and now X and Y are complete dog shit for the first year of the game. Who knows, they may not even play the game past that year - which means they got an even shittier bang for their buck. What's even worse is that they didn't even have to do this; they could have either done something completely different, or implemented it in a different way. An example would be giving people at $250+ a choice of a free buff of their choice for a year (cards, free draft, dungeon raid, extra packs, whatever). But it's not even limited to that. It's the fact that they simply devalued everyone at pro player and above.

And for all those people who are saying nonsensical things like "they shouldn't feel entitled", it's obvious you've never run a business or worked in PR before. For all of those PP and GK that feel like you've been slapped in the face, you have every right to feel so; just as much right as those people who feel completely fine bout the whole affair. You should speak up and let your voice be heard, but at the same time keep in mind to be civil about it.

wang801
05-23-2013, 02:20 AM
why wont just give pp something like 1 yr 100% extra loot drop like the dk teir so that they wont feel left out from the last reward. wont cost cze anything. at least PP would have something to be excited about when we hit the last strech tier

Fireblast
05-23-2013, 02:28 AM
If you're not happy with the Tier you've pledged for, you can change or even cancel it.

~

ru2dvs
05-23-2013, 02:29 AM
So yeah, you stare at a tablet and that's not a big deal. But the suggestion that Crypto is dedicated to making a game and including the features (difficult though they may be to implement) that will put them in good standing for the long game is truly exciting to me. THAT is what is legendary. Not more packs or drafts. We've got those. That's little stuff. Crypto is concerned about the GAME. And the legendary stretch goal is them inviting us on for the ride. 'Help us make a game structure that will last through the next 20 years'. That is what they're saying.

Agreed. Look, if you put down money for a PT/GK, then you were probably thinking about a _lifetime_ of drafts. What's a year's worth of packs of "missing value" by comparison?

And if you are skeptical on the future of the game, you just suddenly got a lot more options where you get a year's worth of drafting AND an awesome PvE perk/more packs. What's so bad about having the choice to make a more optimal decision for you?

Mavian
05-23-2013, 02:31 AM
The other issue that's been overlooked is the simple fact that they're nearing the home stretch on their kickstart, and they managed to create a huge controversy that has people upset and angry. The simple fact that people are making topics on their forums and venting on the kickstart page about how they feel shafted lets you know that they fucked up. There should be no negativity here at all. None whatsoever. I'll say it again. The simple fact that you did something to piss people off means you fucked up.

There was so many different ways you could have done it. But the fact that you waited until the end, and did it in this manner, shows that you fucked up. It doesn't matter whether or not you or anyone else thinks it's fair. The simple fact is that people are fucking pissed. Way to devalue your product. Look at the numbers for yesterday. They're the lowest they've been since the beginning. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure most of the money from yesterday was GK selling out before the announcement.

The other thing that pissed people off, and had my friend personally worried, is that they kept it a secret until the end. They didn't lay it out there and say "Okay guys, this is what we're going to be giving you if we hit this mark." The fact of the matter is they waited until the end, caused a scenario where people scrambled for X and Y, and now X and Y are complete dog shit for the first year of the game. Who knows, they may not even play the game past that year - which means they got an even shittier bang for their buck. What's even worse is that they didn't even have to do this; they could have either done something completely different, or implemented it in a different way. An example would be giving people at $250+ a choice of a free buff of their choice for a year (cards, free draft, dungeon raid, extra packs, whatever). But it's not even limited to that. It's the fact that they simply devalued everyone at pro player and above.

And for all those people who are saying nonsensical things like "they shouldn't feel entitled", it's obvious you've never run a business or worked in PR before. For all of those PP and GK that feel like you've been slapped in the face, you have every right to feel so; just as much right as those people who feel completely fine bout the whole affair. You should speak up and let your voice be heard, but at the same time keep in mind to be civil about it.

If anyone is making a 250 dollar investment and is questioning whether they'll play for even a year, perhaps they need a money manager? Now it's their money and they can do what they'd like, but I'm not one to sink a few hundred bucks into an entertainment product I don't plan on playing for a bit.

Maybe this is good and people should be taking a step back and re-evaluating pledges. No money (aside from PayPal) has been charged. This is the last announced stretch goal. Maybe wait one or two days to see if it is indeed the final one and if the tier you're at is no longer appealing, change it. There's plenty of comparable value tiers now. And please, GK and PP are not "dog shit". They offer the same as they ever did, nothing has been taken away value wise. Their relative value in comparison to other similar tiers is now comparable, but the overall value remains constant.

And to touch upon the "people pissed off". People on the internet get pissed off about EVERYTHING. From balance changes in a video game to some random person's dumb tweet. People being pissed doesn't automatically mean something was done wrong or unfair.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 02:41 AM
If anyone is making a 250 dollar investment and is questioning whether they'll play for even a year, perhaps they need a money manager? Now it's their money and they can do what they'd like, but I'm not one to sink a few hundred bucks into an entertainment product I don't plan on playing for a bit.

Maybe this is good and people should be taking a step back and re-evaluating pledges. No money (aside from PayPal) has been charged. This is the last announced stretch goal. Maybe wait one or two days to see if it is indeed the final one and if the tier you're at is no longer appealing, change it. There's plenty of comparable value tiers now. And please, GK and PP are not "dog shit". They offer the same as they ever did, nothing has been taken away value wise. Their relative value in comparison to other similar tiers is now comparable, but the overall value remains constant.

And to touch upon the "people pissed off". People on the internet get pissed off about EVERYTHING. From balance changes in a video game to some random person's dumb tweet. People being pissed doesn't automatically mean something was done wrong or unfair.

You missed the entire point of the post. Read again.

GhundiPI
05-23-2013, 02:42 AM
why wont just give pp something like 1 yr 100% extra loot drop like the dk teir so that they wont feel left out from the last reward. wont cost cze anything. at least PP would have something to be excited about when we hit the last strech tier

Please do not take this as a personal attack, but I think the idea that the tier you have pledged for should always get something with every stretch goal is where the thought process goes wrong. I think that is one of the few things that CZE actually didn't work out very well with this Kickstarter, giving King and above tier a new reward with every stretch goal. I suspect that it created a sense of entitlement with some, and as such a disappointment when the final stretch goal didn't give something (well, actually it did of course, 15 (more) packs of set 2).

But still, the extra reward is meant as an incentive for people to pledge for those $250 tiers that aren't doing very well at the moment and I'm not sure how an extra reward for a tier that has already been sold out will help in that regard.

ru2dvs
05-23-2013, 02:43 AM
The other thing that pissed people off, and had my friend personally worried, is that they kept it a secret until the end.

The stretch goals and stretch rewards were always in flux and they've stated they were building them based on community feedback.

Look at how they specified this reward to specifically prevent stacking, and how they specifically boosted the tiers that the community as a whole had been reiterating as weak. This was clearly a response move, and I just don't buy that this was some deep plot to piss off a portion of their KS backers.


The fact of the matter is they waited until the end, caused a scenario where people scrambled for X and Y, and now X and Y are complete dog shit for the first year of the game.

It's not a bait and switch if you allow people to change their pledges. They are welcome to select a tier that they think would provide more value. If they think they might only play a year, then why not get a DC?

Also, the 15th day of the KS is not the end.


And for all those people who are saying nonsensical things like "they shouldn't feel entitled", it's obvious you've never run a business or worked in PR before. For all of those PP and GK that feel like you've been slapped in the face, you have every right to feel so; just as much right as those people who feel completely fine bout the whole affair. You should speak up and let your voice be heard, but at the same time keep in mind to be civil about it.

You are welcome to your opinion and are free to express it.

You claim other tiers offer more value. Crypto has offered you a reasonable choice to switch to a different tier. You have not done so. The only resolution you want is for to gain a comparable amount of value.

Is it nonsensical that others see your statement, and see you as feeling entitled to receive additional rewards just because other tiers received them?

Mavian
05-23-2013, 02:47 AM
You missed the entire point of the post. Read again.

I didn't miss it at all. You didn't really have one. You're talking how because people are pissed, they did something wrong. People get pissed about all sorts of perceived slights, real or imagined. That doesn't mean they should be catered to.

And no one should feel "slapped in the face" because they didn't get something this stretch. The Legendary was an unknown. People pledged on the knowledge it was. If they feel slighted some how, they have a couple options. They can not back the project, change tiers, or stay with their pledge.

Tinuvas
05-23-2013, 02:48 AM
@ru2dvs Hear hear! Bravo! No personal attacks or anything. Good show!

Piratepal
05-23-2013, 03:09 AM
I didn't miss it at all. You didn't really have one. You're talking how because people are pissed, they did something wrong. People get pissed about all sorts of perceived slights, real or imagined. That doesn't mean they should be catered to.

And no one should feel "slapped in the face" because they didn't get something this stretch. The Legendary was an unknown. People pledged on the knowledge it was. If they feel slighted some how, they have a couple options. They can not back the project, change tiers, or stay with their pledge.

It's pretty indisputable that the CZE has made an error. There's a false choice here: it wasn't to either balance tiers and upset some people or to not balance and keep some people content. There were many paths that CZE could have taken that would have resolved the balance problem and thus incentivized more pledges (everyone wants this) that would have not upset a portion of their most dedicated base.

Games are primarily about fun and enjoyment - this one should be no exception. This fact makes the feelings of participants relevant to any discussion about the pledge process. Entire threads have been made on the forums discussing people's concerns. The Kickstarter process is known for participation between developers and those who pledge. Trust is a key factor in that relationship so any perceived breach of trust by a portion of the community is a problem. Hopefully CZE will address this more directly - acknowledging the concerns of what is likely a vocal minority. This is the first challenge, the first road block in the process so far. Hopefully CZE rises to the challenge (I suspect they will).

Mavian
05-23-2013, 03:16 AM
How exactly was it indisputable that they made an error? Because you say so? You can disagree with how they decided to balance the tiers, but I don't see it as an error.

And what do you mean a false choice? You literally have a choice to change tiers if you feel the perceived personal value of the other tiers is worth more now. No trust was breached at all. They promised stretch goals, they delivered what they felt were ones the community wanted. You can't please everyone.

Hibbert
05-23-2013, 03:20 AM
I keep seeing an argument that the PP tier is somehow devalued by adding to the others. In terms of absolute value, it's exactly the same as before. The relative value is much harder to guess. And depending on how people value certain things(perks, more players, more cards in the economy, etc.), I understand how they might come to the conclusion that their PP or GK tier has lost relative value.

But the kickstarter stats don't seem to back this up. If people did think the PP tier is really worth that much less now, they would be changing tiers or backing out entirely. I can't see every change, of course, but I haven't seen the PP tier open up. If it was really worth a lot less, you'd expect to see a few open spots. The vast majority still values the "for life" part of the free drafts more than the perks offered by the other $250 tiers. I do admit that some of these people might possibly just be waiting to see if CZE changes anything further.

I'd be really interested in seeing more detailed stats for backers switching tiers or backing out over the next few days. I know people are going to talk about it on the forums and in the KS comments, but I have the feeling it will be a lot like all the "OMG Blizz, if you don't nerf/buff <insert class here>, I'm gonna cancel my sub!" posts you see on the WoW forums. Those must be taken with about 500% of your daily recommended allowance of salt. Hard stats would be awesome, but probably unobtainable outside of CZE.

Mavian
05-23-2013, 03:26 AM
Hibbert, I like you. You summed up what I was trying to get across with the overall vs relative value point.

Piratepal
05-23-2013, 03:34 AM
How exactly was it indisputable that they made an error? Because you say so? You can disagree with how they decided to balance the tiers, but I don't see it as an error.

And what do you mean a false choice? You literally have a choice to change tiers if you feel the perceived personal value of the other tiers is worth more now. No trust was breached at all. They promised stretch goals, they delivered what they felt were ones the community wanted. You can't please everyone.

From your response It seems unlikely that you actually read my post.

Mavian
05-23-2013, 03:45 AM
Yes...I disagree with you. I totally didn't read your post.

You made an initial bold point saying it was "indisputable" that CZE made a mistake. Which...is obviously wrong since plenty of people like the stretch goal, so that seems fairly disputable right from the get go of your statement. But lets continue. You mention the could've done "something" to fix the the tiers but don't elaborate. Since we're working on assumptions here, I can posit ANY value change added to the 250 tiers would've caused some amount of discontent. Add packs? Why not me! Pro Tier didn't get anything. Add more special/exclusive cards? I want some too! Add more PvE based rewards? Same issue they still have and remain unattractive.

Then you go on about the relationship between KS Dev and backers. How they work with each other. If you had been around for the past 15 days leading up to this, you'll have seen the community was very vocal about wanting mobile support and that the other 250 tiers needed adjustment as the Pro was simply too good and that many people double, tripled, and even quadrupled their pledges on the Pro tier, meaning many people didn't even get a shot at them. If anything, this stretch goal is the epitome of listening and working with the majority of the community. There will always be people discontent with changes, especially in perceived/relative value. You can't make everyone happy and in this case, nothing of overall value has even been taken away. Asking CZE to give Pro even more because of a perceived loss of value is a poor precedent to set.

Facilier
05-23-2013, 03:54 AM
If the $250 options aren't balanced, why have CZE declared that they will only fix the unpopular ones if they get $1.5m?

This stretch goal doesn't devalue Pro Player, since the tier still gets the same as it was stated it was going to get (and some bonus Set 2 boosters), but it's callously being left out of a bonus that may be awarded to others who pledged the same amount. What if they declared that Early Bird King is going to get Beta access 1 month later than full price King? Make it a stretch goal too, so players have something to aspire to.

If the $250 options are equal, why not confirm that by making the stretch goal that each $250 level able to pick one other bonus for a year which doesn't stack with their primary one? So the Collectors can add the Pro bonus for a year, or even the dungeon crawler one to help them build a set of items, Pro Players don't get any more drafts, but get some raid bonuses to lure their friends in the game, etc.

If the $250 options aren't equal, adjust them without making it a stretch goal. The latter just comes off as greedy.

keldrin
05-23-2013, 03:54 AM
But my primary issue is that won't start until a year has passed. Single PP pledgers will not start to see their benefits until well into the life of the game. That's not right to me; in fact it's outright punishing an entire tier.

A Grand King has all of the benefits of the tiers, PvE and PvP. A single PP pledger only has that one bonus and it's been negated for a year. I see a problem with that.

I can understand your point. But, if you don't feel your tier is worth the benefits offered compared to what the other tiers are getting, you can still switch.
I went with DC because PP was sold out. And I would still switch to PP if I had the chance. Its long term benefits, I think, are the still the best of the $250 tiers.
Getting the free weekly draft for a year, makes DC in the ball park, but not better in my opinion.

Piratepal
05-23-2013, 04:17 AM
Yes...I disagree with you. I totally didn't read your post.

You made an initial bold point saying it was "indisputable" that CZE made a mistake. Which...is obviously wrong since plenty of people like the stretch goal, so that seems fairly disputable right from the get go of your statement. But lets continue. You mention the could've done "something" to fix the the tiers but don't elaborate. Since we're working on assumptions here, I can posit ANY value change added to the 250 tiers would've caused some amount of discontent. Add packs? Why not me! Pro Tier didn't get anything. Add more special/exclusive cards? I want some too! Add more PvE based rewards? Same issue they still have and remain unattractive.

Then you go on about the relationship between KS Dev and backers. How they work with each other. If you had been around for the past 15 days leading up to this, you'll have seen the community was very vocal about wanting mobile support and that the other 250 tiers needed adjustment as the Pro was simply too good and that many people double, tripled, and even quadrupled their pledges on the Pro tier, meaning many people didn't even get a shot at them. If anything, this stretch goal is the epitome of listening and working with the majority of the community. There will always be people discontent with changes, especially in perceived/relative value. You can't make everyone happy and in this case, nothing of overall value has even been taken away. Asking CZE to give Pro even more because of a perceived loss of value is a poor precedent to set.

You disagree that CZE should address the issue? I see that you read my post but did not comprehend it. Any Decision that causes a negative uproar during a kickstarter pledge run is a mistake - this is the error to which I refer. You can "disagree" that there has been a notable negative response - but the sheer volume of comments & forum posts speak for themselves. This is my primary point. This would not have happened had there been more open communication.

You seem to be trying to represent me as someone with a specific view on this issue that I do not hold. Zealously supporting all decisions by CZE will not help anyone. Now is the time to expect the best! They look to have created a great game and I look forward to it.

Mavian
05-23-2013, 04:34 AM
The question is how do you address it? Many are suggesting add ons as well. That goes back to making Pro tier a clear head and shoulders above value tier. Then you upset the people who just backed the other tiers. If anything, it's best not to address it immediately or at all and let cooler heads prevail.

I'm no where near zealously supporting CZE. I've had very harsh words in regards to their handling of the WoW TCG in the past, they aren't perfect. But in this situation they haven't done anything that hurt the other tiers and they're adding a nice functionality for or near launch in the form of tablets. People quick to claim "betrayal" or "breach of trust" doesn't help anyone either, especially when they lack anything to back it up.

I do expect the best from CZE. So far they've given it with constant updates and stretch goals tailored to overall community feedback. The guy gave his number out on his knuckles, c'mon!

Mike411
05-23-2013, 04:40 AM
To the original poster: nothing lost value. Your issue is that Pro Player is not as far ahead of the other tiers as it was. So yeah, your issue is that other people got a boost. Which makes no sense. That's the nicest way I can put it.

Arbiter
05-23-2013, 05:06 AM
I wonder how many people would still be upset if the deal was "Players at the $250 tiers may choose any 'for life' deal from a different $250 tier. They will get this deal for the first year of the game. This deal will not stack with any similar bonuses". Then the pro players would be getting exactly the same (in theory) as any other $250 tier. I think it would have been a much better wording (not deliberately excluding a tier, but at the same time pro players would only be getting 6 alternate art cards or bonus loot for a year). Personally I think the same people would still be complaining.

Parallax
05-23-2013, 05:19 AM
I wonder how many people would still be upset if the deal was "Players at the $250 tiers may choose any 'for life' deal from a different $250 tier. They will get this deal for the first year of the game. This deal will not stack with any similar bonuses". Then the pro players would be getting exactly the same (in theory) as any other $250 tier. I think it would have been a much better wording (not deliberately excluding a tier, but at the same time pro players would only be getting 6 alternate art cards or bonus loot for a year). Personally I think the same people would still be complaining.

They're all of roughly equal value. You could spring for 6 alternate art cards (presumably one copy of each), or 2340 cards over the next year (additional packs for actually winning matches in draft not included, playing only Swiss draft with a 1/3 match win rate should net you 3120 cards).

This post may have been facetious.

Yasi
05-23-2013, 05:28 AM
You guys still discussing this?

Skylmt
05-23-2013, 05:28 AM
They should have had pro and GK and up get 1 free draft a week for a year that does not stack

Parallax
05-23-2013, 05:39 AM
You guys still discussing this?
Reply hazy try again

Tricsun
05-23-2013, 05:41 AM
I think it really comes down to how long do you plan on playing this game? If it's a year or less, then yeah, you can get pissed, or you can just change your tier. More than a year? Then your PP tier is still MUCH more valuable than the three other tiers are, and you should just stop whining. The way i look at it, this just makes it so the other three tiers are just a bit more tempting for people to donate to, and that will just help make this game that much better.

Yasi
05-23-2013, 05:43 AM
Reply hazy try again


You want to rumble?

Jugan
05-23-2013, 06:07 AM
You disagree that CZE should address the issue? I see that you read my post but did not comprehend it. Any Decision that causes a negative uproar during a kickstarter pledge run is a mistake - this is the error to which I refer. You can "disagree" that there has been a notable negative response - but the sheer volume of comments & forum posts speak for themselves. This is my primary point. This would not have happened had there been more open communication.

You seem to be trying to represent me as someone with a specific view on this issue that I do not hold. Zealously supporting all decisions by CZE will not help anyone. Now is the time to expect the best! They look to have created a great game and I look forward to it.

Anyone that even tries to deny this point is silly; pirate has it correct. The game being available on tablet is a big deal. A really big fucking deal. And it's the epitome of ALL of the stretch goals. And guess what. Instead of talking about how awesome tablet will be, everyone is arguing about a side part of your final stretch goal. So in the end, it doesn't matter how you try to slice it. CZE fucked up.

The simple fact alone that people are arguing should be fairly obvious that there's a fuck-up about. It can't be more blatantly obvious when it overshadows news like tablet compatibility. It's obvious that a lot of people don't understand the concept of PR and customer service.

Oh, and it's laughable that people make these hilarious assertions that investors shouldn't: 1. care what they get out of their money; 2. don't have the right to feel upset about the decisions a company makes; 3. don't have a right to feel upset when they get less than what they bargained for on the onset of their investment.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 06:08 AM
You guys still discussing this?

People don't understand that the fact we are even discussing this in the first place, let alone for this period of time, means CZE fucked up.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 06:11 AM
I think it really comes down to how long do you plan on playing this game? If it's a year or less, then yeah, you can get pissed, or you can just change your tier. More than a year? Then your PP tier is still MUCH more valuable than the three other tiers are, and you should just stop whining. The way i look at it, this just makes it so the other three tiers are just a bit more tempting for people to donate to, and that will just help make this game that much better.

First of all, you're wrong. Second of all, the way you look at it isn't the way other people look at it. Third, ever since their announcement of the final stretch goal, donations have fell through the floor. Fourth, maybe part of the issue is that people won't know how long they want to play this game until they actually start playing it. Fifth, by your logic, if CZE announces that they're taking away all rewards for all tiers, then you should be okay with it. Are you okay with it? Didn't think so.

Mike411
05-23-2013, 06:23 AM
People don't understand that the fact we are even discussing this in the first place, let alone for this period of time, means CZE fucked up.

Discussion is happening, so it means my opinion (CZE fucked up) is correct. <-- Spot the flaw in this logic. You really need to include more in the same post.

The distance between #1 (Pro Player/GK and above) and the other 250s changed. If this is an issue for you, I would advise you to not worry about what other people are getting, because you are still #1. Or move pledges.

jai151
05-23-2013, 06:25 AM
First of all, you're wrong. Second of all, the way you look at it isn't the way other people look at it. Third, ever since their announcement of the final stretch goal, donations have fell through the floor. Fourth, maybe part of the issue is that people won't know how long they want to play this game until they actually start playing it. Fifth, by your logic, if CZE announces that they're taking away all rewards for all tiers, then you should be okay with it. Are you okay with it? Didn't think so.

Actually, dollar value per backer fell way off, but number of backers did not. Which means people are donating lower tiers, likely because most of the higher tiers have sold out.

There is more than one measure of a kickstarter.

DarkSeverance
05-23-2013, 06:26 AM
ISSUE 1 - DevaluingEveryone see's the draft only. Everyone is forgetting there is a Pro-Player Only Tournament only which still has a greater value than the other tiers.


Each of the $250 tiers aside from Pro Player received one free draft a week for a year.It means more drafts for everyone including Pro-Player and it means more customers. It also provides a transition for those who would be more interested in PvE but then decide they like PvP. It also just flat out means more sales and players. Its a win / win for everyone. Unless of course everyone is the Pro-Player pool only want to play with themselves ... oh wait there is a Pro-Player Only Tournament too.


ISSUE 2 - Ignoring
Pro Player was left out of the mass-buff of the other $250 tiers, being ignored while its bonus was given to the other tiers for a year.I'm 2x Grand-King and who gets left out more than Pro-Player... Grand King. Am I complaining? Absolutely not. It actually provides more value to me in the long run. Everyone thinks tablet support is lame because it was coming. It is huge and necessary to speed that process up period. That means a better game in the long run. It also means they don't have to split resources trying to develop it (since they are hiring a team to do it).

Pro-Players tier doesn't need any more buffing or additions and either does Grand King. The real reason people are complaining is: "We jumped on this Kickstarter before everyone, maybe bought multiple tiers and have been here since day 1. We expected Legendary to be something to reward us. It didn't! We got nothing more but instead they are adding sales and value to other needed tiers and I feel slighted. Why haven't they rewarded and given us cool things because we bought first!"

The expectations of something big was there. To a PP Tier they don't seem to realize the larger scope and picture of what this brings to the table but they wanted something. I can understand that. But honestly Tablet support (sooner than later and more importantly by a hired team) is huge. They just don't realize it yet.

Mavian
05-23-2013, 06:27 AM
Discussion is happening, so it means my opinion is correct. <-- Spot the flaw in this logic. You really need to include more in the same post.

The distance between #1 (Pro Player/GK and above) and the other 250s changed. If this is an issue for you, I would advise you to not worry about what other people are getting, because you are still #1. Or move pledges.

Eh, like most of these posts, they just asset correctness without anything other than "they FEEL the value has been decreased" or they "feel the last legendary isn't good because they don't use tablets". I mean there's a reply above where he simply starts off saying someone is wrong.

Whole thing has become tiring, almost wish the Stretch Goals had had no additional rewards and just feature inclusion. We'd have no issue.

Yasi
05-23-2013, 06:29 AM
Eh, like most of these posts, they just asset correctness without anything other than "they FEEL the value has been decreased" or they "feel the last legendary isn't good because they don't use tablets". I mean there's a reply above where he simply starts off saying someone is wrong.

Whole thing has become tiring, almost wish the Stretch Goals had had no additional rewards and just feature inclusion. We'd have no issue.

It's pretty tiring, isn't it?

Tricsun
05-23-2013, 07:08 AM
Fifth, by your logic, if CZE announces that they're taking away all rewards for all tiers, then you should be okay with it. Are you okay with it? Didn't think so.

All the little bonuses on the Stretch goals? Sure, take them away, and just have them be something that adds to the game. That's what they should have been to begin with, "If we get this much money, we can also do this." The bonuses from the separate tier levels should stay the same, because that's how kickstarter works.

I wont even bother to mention your other "points", because it just sounds like someone raging over their keyboard.

jtatta
05-23-2013, 07:15 AM
Give someone free things and they always just want more.

On the 2nd year of the game, the non-Pro tier backers are going to be paying $7/draft while the Pro Tier players still get them for free. I don't really see what the big deal is. The longer the game goes, the more value the PP has. If we only expect the game to last one year, then sure, the other tiers just got absurdly better but let's be honest with ourselves, if we only thought the game was going to last a year we wouldn't donate in the first place.

PP tier is still a TON of value and absolutely nobody is mentioning the special tournament that we get entered into with the prize being 4x of every card in the game. Basically what the update does is give people more incentive to buy the Dungeon Crawler tier which was arguably about as good as Pro Tier anyway assuming you can sell loot on the AH.

Just accept that you got a bunch of stuff for free and be happy that you get to play the game before the non-backers.

Tyrfang
05-23-2013, 07:55 AM
The error that Cryptozoic made was basically that they should have announced the evening of the tiers, separate from the stretch goal before PP/GK sold out as the "loot card" that is expected in each pack.

I think the popularity of the KS clearly surprised the team, and their plans were sped up with a a few resulting "oops" moments (e.g. the "subscription feature" and lots of situations where there were literally no stretch goals...)

Tinuvas
05-23-2013, 08:10 AM
I think the popularity of the KS clearly surprised the team, and their plans were sped up with a a few resulting "oops" moments (e.g. the "subscription feature" and lots of situations where there were literally no stretch goals...)

Nice problem to have when you are doing so good at what you do that your customer base starts pulling you along instead of vice versa lol. Crypto really struck a chord with what they are marketing this game to be. There is an obvious hole in the market that they are trying to fill, and from their marketing so far, they are plugging it better than even they thought they would. Way to go Crypto! Now get back to work! I expect a beta in September! [/bossy attitude]

Jugan
05-23-2013, 08:24 AM
Give someone free things and they always just want more.


It's not free. People are paying for it.

arastor
05-23-2013, 08:26 AM
The error that Cryptozoic made was basically that they should have announced the evening of the tiers, separate from the stretch goal before PP/GK sold out as the "loot card" that is expected in each pack.

I think the popularity of the KS clearly surprised the team, and their plans were sped up with a a few resulting "oops" moments (e.g. the "subscription feature" and lots of situations where there were literally no stretch goals...)

Give the man a prize, because he just hit the bullseye! I agree %100. If this had not been portrayed as part of "The Legendary Stretch Goal" I would have probably been a little annoyed, but then said, "meh" and moved on. Still, they have been scrambling to keep up with the feeding frenzy (and may have gotten a little frazzled when it looked like the frenzy would die down, too).


Nice problem to have when you are doing so good at what you do that your customer base starts pulling you along instead of vice versa lol.

Lol indeed! Can't argue with that.

Malicus
05-23-2013, 08:33 AM
Give the man a prize, because he just hit the bullseye! I agree %100. If this had not been portrayed as part of "The Legendary Stretch Goal" I would have probably been a little annoyed, but then said, "meh" and moved on. Still, they have been scrambling to keep up with the feeding frenzy (and may have gotten a little frazzled when it looked like the frenzy would die down, too).



Lol indeed! Can't argue with that.

I do agree in principle that this is their error but I cannot fault them over much for making the change conditional since free drafts are potentially lost revenue so they needed to make sure they covered their next funding goal.

Personally I think we would have made it anyway with the change so they could have sold it better as a separate update rather than tying it to the stretch.

stiii
05-23-2013, 09:58 AM
People don't understand that the fact we are even discussing this in the first place, let alone for this period of time, means CZE fucked up.

Or it means people will complain about anything? The amount of terrible logic like this in this thread is painful. Just because you say it doesn't make it true.

Pro tier has gone from being massively the best to just the best and that is something to complain about?

stiii
05-23-2013, 09:59 AM
logical strawmen nothing to see here

Donk making unsupported statements nothing here to see. If it is a logical strawman then you need to explain why. Your word is NOT good enough.

Jugan
05-23-2013, 10:07 AM
Or it means people will complain about anything? The amount of terrible logic like this in this thread is painful. Just because you say it doesn't make it true.

Pro tier has gone from being massively the best to just the best and that is something to complain about?

Because we saw this amount of discourse and argumentation for every single stretch goal released over the past 10 days. I love how you cry terrible logic, yet employ it yourself.

KingBlackstone
05-23-2013, 10:13 AM
Today I learned that TCG players are terrible at arguing.