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MrMcPippens
06-07-2013, 07:56 PM
I just realised the biggest con for me for a digital tcg. I won't be able to successfully bluff as easily facing people online rather than face to face. In MTG I could easily hold a land in hand and get my opponent to think I'm holding onto a counter or kill spell, and so they trick themselves into having to play around nothing. I think I was beginning to get pretty good at it too. But without being able to employ mannerisms and facial expressions to attempt to trick the opponent, I can only hold a card in hand and hope they fall for a subtle bluff.

Trothael
06-07-2013, 07:59 PM
So you're bothered because it's a level playing field?

IndigoShade
06-07-2013, 08:01 PM
Unless you use VoIP and go "Not bad, not bad!" when you draw your 6th diamond resource like Ben does.

MrMcPippens
06-07-2013, 08:01 PM
in real life being able to bluff is a valid tool that anyone can learn, not being able to bluff isnt "leveling the playing field" its just removing a useful tool

Karokoram
06-07-2013, 08:01 PM
Had a very relevant conversation with a professional poker player about this. He prefers to grind online gambling sites for this very reason: technical skill is more valuable than playing a bluffing side-game. He wins because he is a better player, not because he is a better liar.

drednex
06-07-2013, 08:02 PM
Unless you use VoIP and go "Not bad, not bad!" when you draw your 6th diamond resource like Ben does.

It also helps when you subtly wink at the webcam. That's not a tell at all.

funktion
06-07-2013, 08:04 PM
So you're bothered because it's a level playing field?

Calling it a "level playing field" is completely off base. Bluffing is one of the skills involved in playing any physical game that has a luck aspect to it. Bluffing is a skill, the playing field is still level regardless of whether it exists. My guess is that by making your statement that it's a skill which you haven't made much effort to hone.

With all that said, bluffing still exists, but PHYSICALLY bluffing does not. The problem with bluffing online is it's much more difficult to determine your opponents skill level before you've actually played against them.

Kami
06-07-2013, 08:04 PM
I actually find it more difficult to bluff in-person than online. In-person, you're more likely to have tells. Online, all they have are cold facts.

Is that card a counter? Will he attack? He has three cards in his hand... should I be worried?

caffn8d
06-07-2013, 08:06 PM
Body language is definitely a physical element you can't duplicate. That said the strongest part of that bluff during any game I've personally played is just having the card in hand. Someone can hmm and haw until they are blue in the face, and I'm still going to play off what I actually know. :)

BTW, if you like playing bluffing style card games I highly recommend Android: Netrunner. Fantastic, asymmetrical, hidden info style living card game.

MrMcPippens
06-07-2013, 08:09 PM
ya but i have been honing my skills of bluffing nothing into something and downplaying something to seem like nothing, causing my opponent to misplay or play more risky into my trap. in real life if ur bad at bluffing you should just try not to read ur opponent, and you can try to make ur opponent think u have tells that u really dont, for example when i draw something i really need (like a counter) ill try to look disappointed at it and immediately put it face down on the table and not interract with it, as though it were a land. but i wont do this every time so they cant really catch on. usually my bluffing really comes out in game 2 or 3

MrMcPippens
06-07-2013, 08:12 PM
most people (like myself) try not to pay attention to the other players mannerisms, I often dont even look at my opponent unless one of us is speaking (or if im currently bluffing and watching him take his turn) in most cases trying to bluff doesnt really do anything, but it can be fun to try to bluff and if ur opponent misplays to it patting urself on the back in ur mind ^_^

fitzle
06-07-2013, 08:13 PM
Bluffing works pretty good in set games like Poker but not so sure about CCGs! I'd think it would be hard to fake a player out once he saw what kind of deck you were playing. Then again, maybe that's why I never did that well when sitting across from a stranger. You got to know when to walk away and you got to know when to run!

MrMcPippens
06-07-2013, 08:14 PM
another problem with bluffing online with hex is the size and placement of the "number of cards in hand" counter its hardly noticible way on the left side

Random360
06-08-2013, 12:06 AM
better players are generally going to be playing around things that you could have or things that they KNOW you have anyways.

Bossett
06-08-2013, 12:23 AM
We were chatting about this in IRC:


MrFunsocks: I just loved playing a counterspell deck, because you just sit there with 2 untapped islands and 1 card in your hand and watch them sweat
MrFunsocks: Didn't matter if what you had in your hand was an ornithopter. They'd still never play anything
Bossett: Hehe, I do worry we'll miss a bit of that just because it's not as obvious you're deliberately leaving things on the table
MrFunsocks: Yeah, i wish resources were more visual, instead of just numbers
MrFunsocks: Makes that bluff more effective
Bossett: Yeah - and the opponent cards - they could just be floating like in Hearthstone to make it effective
MrFunsocks: I'd love to be able to see a phantom hand
Bossett: Just make it fill left to right so they see that all I had was a basic land and it kept them from tapping their 20/20 unblockable

It would be very cool to show the cards in-hand as things you can spot in-game and tell when a player held a card through a turn and then played it and it was rubbish (compared to what you expected). It would also be nice if we could somehow make untapped resources more obvious - maybe one 'gem' for each resource, in a pile? They could wink out as you use them - so there's a more visceral feeling when you or your opponent has a tonne of resources unused.

Zephyrduo
06-08-2013, 12:28 AM
If there is an in-game chat box you can still effectively use it for bluffing.

Emptied your hand last round? Got a resource card this turn? Want to throw your opponent off? Type in a smiley face in the chat box.

You think you can't bluff online just because you can't see people? Think again.

snipun
06-08-2013, 01:16 AM
I have every intent of at least doing VOIP with as many players as possible.

Fireblast
06-08-2013, 01:28 AM
Bluffing mostly work against bad players

~

Bossett
06-08-2013, 01:43 AM
Bluffing mostly work against bad players

~

Let me give you a scenario - it's late game, we both have 5 life, 1 card and nothing on the board. In my hand I have an instant that can do 5 damage to you. You have enough mana available and a single card in your hand, and I don't know what it is. In this circumstance, it's very, very possible that I decide to hold onto my instant rather than play it, risk counterspell and end up cardless and creatureless against something you may draw. I pass through my turn and that keeps you alive to draw another card and play another turn - giving you the opportunity to win.

What part of that scenario would lead you to believe I'm a bad player?

theradol
06-08-2013, 01:49 AM
taking an extra long amount of time before passing priority can be a bluff.

Joolz
06-08-2013, 01:54 AM
We were chatting about this in IRC:



It would be very cool to show the cards in-hand as things you can spot in-game and tell when a player held a card through a turn and then played it and it was rubbish (compared to what you expected). It would also be nice if we could somehow make untapped resources more obvious - maybe one 'gem' for each resource, in a pile? They could wink out as you use them - so there's a more visceral feeling when you or your opponent has a tonne of resources unused.

A good point, though I think most good players will notice regardless. That makes me think of one of the things I'll most miss coming from the WoW tcg, with quests it made it much easier and profitable to to bluff a counter. Just pretend like you have a counter and if they don't bite just complete a quest and gain card advantage. Though I'm sure that's one of the reasons why games take so long.

Fireblast
06-08-2013, 01:57 AM
What part of that scenario would lead you to believe I'm a bad player?

It depends for how long he has the card, if he had something he should have countered before etc...
Waiting to finish him gives your opponent more out, also it depends on how much resources you both have, did he keep his resource up on purpose or did he have nothing to play.
You have to guess what he could have in hand and calculate the odds of when it's best to try to finish him.

The fact that it's digital or not doesn't change anything in your example

~

Bossett
06-08-2013, 01:59 AM
There's a game timer already that will cap games at an hour - I don't think 'drawing it out' is a big deal because CZE can always manipulate the amount of time people get if it starts to get out of hand. Unlike a physical game, the timer will likely run in casual games too.

Bossett
06-08-2013, 02:03 AM
It depends for how long he has the card, if he had something he should have countered before etc...

See, I would call it a bluff, if earlier you didn't counter something you could have to set up this exact scenario. Also, in a digital game, you don't have any way of knowing how long he's had the card - did he just draw it?


did he keep his resource up on purpose or did he have nothing to play.

Also maybe a bluff! He may have something he could play that he's hanging onto, to make it look like a counter! (Like an unneeded late-game land.)

RanaDunes
06-08-2013, 02:03 AM
I just realised the biggest con for me for a digital tcg. I won't be able to successfully bluff as easily facing people online rather than face to face. In MTG I could easily hold a land in hand and get my opponent to think I'm holding onto a counter or kill spell, and so they trick themselves into having to play around nothing. I think I was beginning to get pretty good at it too. But without being able to employ mannerisms and facial expressions to attempt to trick the opponent, I can only hold a card in hand and hope they fall for a subtle bluff.

Opponents can still see how many cards in your hand.
You can still bluff them by keeping a hand in which happens to be a land, I always do this in MTGO.

Golstar
06-08-2013, 02:39 AM
As a long-time mtgo player my experience is that you can most certainly bluff. You can play as if you had that direct damage spell or counterspell in your hand - thus forcing your opponent to play around a card you don't even have! You cannot use body language to signal anything, but at high levels of play this doesn't work anyway. Give off false signals through your play is a much stronger tool. Overcomitting on purpose, baiting an alpha strike, etc. etc.

Zomnivore
06-08-2013, 02:42 AM
If you want to learn how to lie, I suggest you play a game mode called Trouble in Terrorist Town. That game is an amazing show of how you can teach players real skills.

I find that game to be an inspiration for what videogames can do.

McKahlan
06-08-2013, 03:26 AM
One thing I'm going to miss is the impossibility to tap land.
You can't bluff a false wrath or false restauration angel or whatever. It's a little bit sad :(