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Kami
05-15-2014, 01:39 PM
On the one hand the case feels a bit week despite all the similarities. On the other hand, Apple's case against Samsung felt far weaker than this, and they still won a settlement. You just never know in cases like this. It's hard to predict when those ruling on the case don't fully understand the subject, and if people are confused by technology, how well do you expect them to grasp nuances of collectable card games?

Apple vs Samsung was also an American vs Foreigner battle.

Apple did not win the majority of cases outside of the US if I recall.

Dralon
05-15-2014, 01:40 PM
CZE ...let's get some of those PVE dungeons, champions and equipment, guild functionality in pronto. Even if they are bare bones compared to your eventual vision. It's the PVE that made so many people excited about this game and would go a long way towards helping Hex stand apart as a game innovative on its own merits.

Kami
05-15-2014, 01:41 PM
Although it occurs to me that WotC/Hasbro may also be trying to get insider information on game development off CZE considering that the PvE portion of the game has been so hush-hush. Especially if it goes to trial and ends up in the 'Discovery Phase' as I've heard.

HeXBazou
05-15-2014, 01:44 PM
hasbro.... if i stop magic it's because : it's expensive, hard to play IRL without player, and 1 tournament in my country cost 50€ (journey + tournament + hotel), in other country 200€ the weekend, i need a real videogame with competition. Not a clone of Magic (mtgo). i need HeX.

Marsden
05-15-2014, 01:45 PM
This right here from that article speaks the most:

"If the developers of Wolfenstein 3-D were able to monopolize the idea of the first person perspective of a protagonist winding through levels using guns and other weapons to destroy enemies, then we wouldn't have Halo or Call of Duty."

It does. But I also get worried when the same article says "Did Doom appropriate Wolfenstein’s first-person shooter model?" .... they're both ID. Terrible example. Schoolboy (you know, not even a schoolboy - they would know) error.

Glae
05-15-2014, 01:47 PM
First, I would like to thank Hasbro for acknowledging that Hex: Shards of Fate is a better game then Magic: The Gathering.

Second, I would like to point out that this is the second time since WotC was bought out by Hasbro that someone has made a better product based on some of the ideas created by WotC whereas WotC continued to push their franchises into the ground.

Thank you CZE and Paizo.

Shots fired.

Tinuvas
05-15-2014, 01:47 PM
My money is on Cory, literally (can't do anything about that now though...KS was awhile ago) and figuratively. Sure makes for an interesting thought process, but after the initial gut-tightening, I'm perfectly happy paying my way to more drafts. Go CZE lawyers, make us proud.

On another note, certain things make sense a bit more now. For instance, the end of refunds (glut of refund requests as the lawsuit hits from freaked out customers...bad idea), and comments from Cory stressing that he is embedded in the game for the long haul.

On another conspiracy theory level note: What are the odds that Hex is, in small part, an effort from mysterious figures in the gaming industry to push against WOTC's dominance in the TCG industry and see if they can legally smash the hold they have on the business. The timing of the release of the game (just before the expiration of the patent) doesn't hurt that theory. Go conspiracy theorists! Watch out for the Illuminati!

Glae
05-15-2014, 01:52 PM
Eh. I think if they were micro managing the timing like that, they would've just waited the extra month and a half for the monetized beta. 2 months from now they could've launched $ beta and said "qq moar, your patent expired"

Which leads me to believe that they were confident of their legal standing in the first place.

Showsni
05-15-2014, 01:54 PM
Posted my feelings over at Wizard's site when I saw the news story, thought I may as well copy them here too:


I'm posting this here because it mostly relates to Magic, but this is my response to the news story on the main site: http://company.wizards.com/content/wizards-coast-files-complaint-against-cryptozoic-entertainment-and-hex-entertainment

So, Wizards of the Coast is suing Hex, the Kickstarted MMO + TCG, on grounds of copyright, patent and trade dress infringement. For the layperson, there's a write up of the lawsuit here: http://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/05/understanding-the-wizards-v-hex-lawsuit-in-plain-english/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

It's not entirely unexpected that Wizards would do this; Hex does share many similarities with Magic, mostly to do with the in game mechanics of the TCG half of the game (or course the MMO side is completely different). The plot, mechanic names, card layouts and so on are generally different, though a few cards are almost identical (compart Oracle Song to Divination, for example). Still, Hex is aiming at a very different marketplace, branding itself as the first ever TCGMMO and making a big deal about the guilds, dungeons, raid bosses, loot, equipment and so on. It saddens me that if Wizards have their way this exciting game will be crushed.

I've been a long time Magic the Gathering fan, and if anything Hex only kindled my interest in Magic leading me to seek out twitch streamers for both games. I see them occupying very different areas. Hex is digital only, and it can never compete with attending a real life Magic tournament, FNM, draft, etc. That's what I love about playing Magic, going out to meet friends and play with them. I suppose there's a chance Hex might take some of MtGO's market share, but again, they are very different games - MtGO certainly has nothing like forming guilds in order to conquer dungeons and win equipment for your hired mercenaries to defend your Keep with, as Hex does!

And a lot of WIzard's claims in the lawsuit seem somewhat spurious. They claim obviously false things like the Hex Rage mechanic being akin to Bushido (funny, I don't recall Bushido reading "Whenever this creature attacks, put a +1/+0 counter on it"), or that a substantial part of the money investors put into Hex to fund the game would have gone to Wizards instead if Hex hadn't existed. Yes, I backed Hex, as did thousands of other people. If anything this lawsuit will alienate those people, many of them fans of Magic. Several people at the Hex forums are already calling for a boycott of Wizards/Hasbro products.

I love Magic, and I love the spirit of the game - RIchard Garfield set out to create something new and revolutionary. Now Wizards lawyers are trying to shut down other people taking inspiration from that and trying to do the same. I won't be doing anything silly like ripping up my collection of Magic cards. But I am disappointed in Wizards.

GatticusFinch
05-15-2014, 01:56 PM
Eh. I think if they were micro managing the timing like that, they would've just waited the extra month and a half for the monetized beta. 2 months from now they could've launched $ beta and said "qq moar, your patent expired"

Which leads me to believe that they were confident of their legal standing in the first place.

Or that they weren't and needed an income stream to help fight the lawsuit or pay licensing fees. No one knows until CZE says something and they certainly are not going to say anything that open.

Frankly, they would be better off if it was not in monetized beta. If it had happened while the game was in alpha, they could have radically changed the UI and then said "see, it looks nothing like it."

Wolfe
05-15-2014, 01:58 PM
Games evolve. New ones take the most loved features of earlier games and add original characteristics. The creation of Magic: The Gatheringis a case in point.

Though there are about a dozen games that have directly influenced Magic in one way or another, the game's most influential ancestor is a game for which I have no end of respect: Cosmic Encounter, originally published by Eon Products.

Who said that? Oh let's see... Richard Garfield, Magic Pocket Players' Guide published 1994

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/238b

Diesbudt
05-15-2014, 01:59 PM
My money is on Cory, literally (can't do anything about that now though...KS was awhile ago) and figuratively. Sure makes for an interesting thought process, but after the initial gut-tightening, I'm perfectly happy paying my way to more drafts. Go CZE lawyers, make us proud.

On another note, certain things make sense a bit more now. For instance, the end of refunds (glut of refund requests as the lawsuit hits from freaked out customers...bad idea), and comments from Cory stressing that he is embedded in the game for the long haul.

On another conspiracy theory level note: What are the odds that Hex is, in small part, an effort from mysterious figures in the gaming industry to push against WOTC's dominance in the TCG industry and see if they can legally smash the hold they have on the business. The timing of the release of the game (just before the expiration of the patent) doesn't hurt that theory. Go conspiracy theorists! Watch out for the Illuminati!

So what you are saying is, Cory is an evil villian master mind. Im game. lol

fuzzywuzhe
05-15-2014, 02:00 PM
Hex only rekindled my spirits in the TCG world and has gotten me to spend more money as a whole in the industry, including both hex and MTG. Now with this lawsuit I will no longer be supporting Hasbro and MTG and only put my money toward Hex which for me is the better game especially once PVE arrives. Its a sad day for the TCG world.

Glae
05-15-2014, 02:00 PM
Well, and the claim of "its unreleased, and won't be released until the patent expires anyway" is ... more suspect now that they're selling product.

Zophie
05-15-2014, 02:01 PM
Just read through Spry Fox v. Lolapps. What a terrible ruling. The extrinsic text for substantial similarity could plausibly be met because Yeti Town had the word "Town" in its name and also because the objects chosen (huts/houses, trees, whatever) were kind of the same. And the intrinsic test can be met because a) bloggers, b) the extrinsic test.

I'm having a hard time reconciling it with earlier precedent.

One aspect of this case ruling was the fact that 6Waves was engaged to publish Triple Town to mobile and had a beta build of it sent to them. Instead of publishing the game, 6Waves instead published an almost identical copy called Yeti Town via their mobile studio (Lolapps) which it acquired very shortly afterwards. This was all pretty shady and was probably why they lost the case.

Tinuvas
05-15-2014, 02:11 PM
So what you are saying is, Cory is an evil villian master mind. Im game. lol

C'mon. The guy kills innocent clowns (with a sweet looking gun I might add) for cash. Am I the only one that saw that? The evidence is abundantly clear.

maniza
05-15-2014, 02:16 PM
Who said that? Oh let's see... Richard Garfield, Magic Pocket Players' Guide published 1994

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/238b

the irony...

fuzzywuzhe
05-15-2014, 02:16 PM
This thread is proof that Hex always has the community's best interest at hand. Most games would have locked this thread on spot and wouldnt allow this convo to take place. I appreciate Cory and the rest of the Hex team and everything they do for us!!!!!! I hope everything goes well!

ossuary
05-15-2014, 02:25 PM
Games evolve. New ones take the most loved features of earlier games and add original characteristics. The creation of Magic: The Gatheringis a case in point.

Though there are about a dozen games that have directly influenced Magic in one way or another, the game's most influential ancestor is a game for which I have no end of respect: Cosmic Encounter, originally published by Eon Products.Who said that? Oh let's see... Richard Garfield, Magic Pocket Players' Guide published 1994

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/238b

Wouldn't it be funny if this little quote (and the attendant admission of "direct influence" a.k.a. copying) is what ends up causing Hasbro's suit to be thrown out in totality? ;)

GatticusFinch
05-15-2014, 02:29 PM
The quote is meaningless as far as the lawsuit goes, so you might as well beat that horse to death now before it spawns 10 pages of posts.

AswanJaguar
05-15-2014, 02:43 PM
This is an interesting comment from the Quiet Speculation article (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/05/understanding-the-wizards-v-hex-lawsuit-in-plain-english/):


As a patent attorney, I can give some insight into possible challenges the MTG patent may face:

First, it’s priority date is its filing date of June 22, 1994. In patent law, there is what is called an “on-sale bar” that bars the issuance of a patent if the invention was “. . . in public use or on sale in this country, more than one year prior to the date of the application for patent in the United States. . .” Therefore, simplifying a bit, if MTG was in use or on-sale before June 22, 1993, then the patent is invalid.

Of course, Richard Garfield did a TON of testing of MTG before releasing it at Origins game fair, on July 13, 1993. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_Edition_(Mag… and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_Game_Fair discussing the initial release. See http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.asp… for a discussion of the game development.

However, there is an R&D exception to the 102(b) public use or on-sale bar. It’s obviously complicated, but essentially if the public “playtesting” done by Richard Garfield prior to June 22, 1993 was absolutely necessary to the creation and invention of MTG, then the 102(b) public use or on-sale bar does not apply in this case. To challenge the patent, HEX may have to find out more details about each and every time the cards were seen in public prior to June 22, 1993. If they can show that any public sight of the cards occurred prior to that date, the patent is invalid.

It’ll be interesting, that’s for sure.

Wolfe
05-15-2014, 02:47 PM
The quote is meaningless as far as the lawsuit goes, so you might as well beat that horse to death now before it spawns 10 pages of posts.

Indeed it is meaningless. I guess I was just trying to lighten the mood. Thanks, btw, for all the help explaining the legal stuff in this thread. It's been very much appreciated.

Bloodiron
05-15-2014, 02:49 PM
For a UI and semantic change, instead of showing a deck what if each player has a 'pool' in a chalice or something which your champion then pulls a random card to signify drawing a card from your deck? That way, it's no longer a deck, but a pool of effects and troops your champion can call upon to help them fight other champions.

Could even have some nice effects at the beginning of your turn to show a card rising from the pool of arcane liquid. Like a rippling and then the card slowly rising, dripping and then being added to your hand.

An_Idiot
05-15-2014, 02:54 PM
For a UI and semantic change, instead of showing a deck what if each player has a 'pool' in a chalice or something which your champion then pulls a random card to signify drawing a card from your deck? That way, it's no longer a deck, but a pool of effects and troops your champion can call upon to help them fight other champions.

Could even have some nice effects at the beginning of your turn to show a card rising from the pool of arcane liquid. Like a rippling and then the card slowly rising, dripping and then being added to your hand.

I don't care if Hex wins this suit in a landfall... I want this!!

Quasari
05-15-2014, 02:56 PM
For a UI and semantic change, instead of showing a deck what if each player has a 'pool' in a chalice or something which your champion then pulls a random card to signify drawing a card from your deck? That way, it's no longer a deck, but a pool of effects and troops your champion can call upon to help them fight other champions.

Could even have some nice effects at the beginning of your turn to show a card rising from the pool of arcane liquid. Like a rippling and then the card slowly rising, dripping and then being added to your hand.

We lose sleeves then. Unless you see the back of the sleeve reflecting on the pool.

Alturis
05-15-2014, 03:11 PM
I like it, they're effectively providing Cryptozoic and Hex free publicity by doing this

How true indeed! I had never heard of Hex until I saw a posting about the lawsuit. I immediately googled it and am now anxiously hoping to get a beta key. ;)

Morgaln
05-15-2014, 03:16 PM
How true indeed! I had never heard of Hex until I saw a posting about the lawsuit. I immediately googled it and am now anxiously hoping to get a beta key. ;)

As many others have said, any publicity is good publicity. Spread the word!

hacky
05-15-2014, 03:20 PM
How true indeed! I had never heard of Hex until I saw a posting about the lawsuit. I immediately googled it and am now anxiously hoping to get a beta key. ;)

I look forward to demonstrating our awesome game to you and many others, on Twitch and elsewhere. :)

I'm no lawyer, but I can show you and others what makes Hex both similar and wonderfully different, if you give myself (and other fellow livestreamers!) the chance.

MatWith1T
05-15-2014, 03:37 PM
Who said that? Oh let's see... Richard Garfield, Magic Pocket Players' Guide published 1994

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/238b

Cosmic Encounter... sooooooo good...
It's a shame it's online reboot was such a flop.

Bloodiron
05-15-2014, 03:38 PM
We lose sleeves then. Unless you see the back of the sleeve reflecting on the pool.

I could see that, or the card could do a slow rotation. Or instead of sleeves, different vessel types/skins.

Personally though, I don't mind losing the sleeves. I wasn't planning on using them anyway. Even for the physical TCGs I play, I prefer using clear sleeves so I can see the card backs.

frychikn
05-15-2014, 03:49 PM
until pve comes out, this game really is just magic with different card names for the most part. by you guy's standards i could start my own online game with the same mechanics as hex but add a mechanic or 2 and keep the resource system but change the way champions work by making them cost mana to use and have requirements and my game would totally not be the same at all.

any player good at magic can instantly come to this game is dominate because this game is literally magic with different names. i literally have not read a rule book or anything for this game, because i play magic. and this game is pretty much magic. when i play mortal kombat i cant just switch to SF and still be as good just starting out. when i play CoD i cant switch to titanfall and still be as good right out the gate. i literally came from magic and my draft record is pretty sick because.... this game is just like magic. like almost exactly.

i do think wizards has a case. if hex loses, whats the worst that happens? they give us our kickstarter money back? then they have to make a more original game? and we can kick start it again? without the pve this game is a carbon copy of magic, all they have to do is show that with pve this game is nothing like magic(which honestly is kind of true) and we're fine. otherwise, you have to be realistic and open your eyes if you dont think this game is a magic copy almost mechanic for mechanic and be prepared to start something new again.

omghex
05-15-2014, 03:55 PM
ugh, miss post

Xexist
05-15-2014, 03:58 PM
until pve comes out, this game really is just magic with different card names for the most part. by you guy's standards i could start my own online game with the same mechanics as hex but add a mechanic or 2 and keep the resource system but change the way champions work by making them cost mana to use and have requirements and my game would totally not be the same at all.

any player good at magic can instantly come to this game is dominate because this game is literally magic with different names. i literally have not read a rule book or anything for this game, because i play magic. and this game is pretty much magic. when i play mortal kombat i cant just switch to SF and still be as good just starting out. when i play CoD i cant switch to titanfall and still be as good right out the gate. i literally came from magic and my draft record is pretty sick because.... this game is just like magic. like almost exactly.

i do think wizards has a case. if hex loses, whats the worst that happens? they give us our kickstarter money back? then they have to make a more original game? and we can kick start it again? without the pve this game is a carbon copy of magic, all they have to do is show that with pve this game is nothing like magic(which honestly is kind of true) and we're fine. otherwise, you have to be realistic and open your eyes if you dont think this game is a magic copy almost mechanic for mechanic and be prepared to start something new again.

Ok troll. I also went an played Hearthstone and OMG i was able to understand everything I didnt even need to read the rules! It must be a clone too! Hearthstone = HEX = MTG! They are exact!


if hex loses, whats the worst that happens? they give us our kickstarter money back?.

And delusional.

MuffLord4
05-15-2014, 03:58 PM
Im not surprised, WoTC is one of the scummiest companies on the earth next to Nestlé.

Also people saying hex is a copy of MTG, we'd be stuck in the stoneages if people didn't copy each other. I remember when people called the game Shadowwarrior a Doom Clone.

Kami
05-15-2014, 04:00 PM
any player good at magic can instantly come to this game is dominate because this game is literally magic with different names. i literally have not read a rule book or anything for this game, because i play magic. and this game is pretty much magic. when i play mortal kombat i cant just switch to SF and still be as good just starting out. when i play CoD i cant switch to titanfall and still be as good right out the gate. i literally came from magic and my draft record is pretty sick because.... this game is just like magic. like almost exactly.

This is purely subjective and I'd argue you're just tooting your own horn in the case of your draft record.

As for your other comparisons, I'd say you just aren't at the same level in other genres. I jumped from playing games like Quake to CS to COD to Battlefield and even Titanfall (pre-launch) and rarely do I not end up in the top rankings of the scoreboard every match. This is without learning the rules nor the nuances of each FPS but by using the same method I play the genre.

For fighting games, if you've seen the top pros, they play many different fighting games and they are still usually top tier. Are all fighting games similar? No. They just use their skill and experience to play.

frychikn
05-15-2014, 04:10 PM
This is purely subjective and I'd argue you're just tooting your own horn in the case of your draft record.

As for your other comparisons, I'd say you just aren't at the same level in other genres. I jumped from playing games like Quake to CS to COD to Battlefield and even Titanfall (pre-launch) and rarely do I not end up in the top rankings of the scoreboard every match. This is without learning the rules nor the nuances of each FPS but by using the same method I play the genre.

For fighting games, if you've seen the top pros, they play many different fighting games and they are still usually top tier. Are all fighting games similar? No. They just use their skill and experience to play.

if a new fighting game came out with a new fighting system fight game pros wouldnt just pick it up and be as skilled as they were in other games when they 1st play it, is my point. considering i used to be hardcore in fighting games there is a lot you have to learn in every fighting game(such as frames, cancels etc etc) so its nowhere like my comparison of hex and magic.

shooters, i admit im not very good at them so ill give you the benefit of the doubt. but i still dont think you could play say golden eye 64 at a top level, then play a single game of titan fall and play at the top levels in that game, which is the main point im trying to make.

MuffLord4
05-15-2014, 04:15 PM
if a new fighting game came out with a new fighting system fight game pros wouldnt just pick it up and be as skilled as they were in other games when they 1st play it, is my point. considering i used to be hardcore in fighting games there is a lot you have to learn in every fighting game(such as frames, cancels etc etc) so its nowhere like my comparison of hex and magic.

shooters, i admit im not very good at them so ill give you the benefit of the doubt. but i still dont think you could play say golden eye 64 at a top level, then play a single game of titan fall and play at the top levels in that game, which is the main point im trying to make.

Still the point he's trying to make:

There will always be similar games where a skill you acquired will apply, maybe some nuances but basics will be basics.

I played Dota1 back in WC3 days and then moved on to league of legends to become a platinum player and shortly after diamond even without knowing half of the champs, is the game a direct clone? Nope.


Also if this lawsuit goes through it'd be bad for all gamers, that's like CoD trying to sue battlefield 4 or vice versa.

Hasbro is just showing a really shitty example of why patents are sometimes missused.

Kami
05-15-2014, 04:18 PM
if a new fighting game came out with a new fighting system fight game pros wouldnt just pick it up and be as skilled as they were in other games when they 1st play it, is my point. considering i used to be hardcore in fighting games there is a lot you have to learn in every fighting game(such as frames, cancels etc etc) so its nowhere like my comparison of hex and magic.

shooters, i admit im not very good at them so ill give you the benefit of the doubt. but i still dont think you could play say golden eye 64 at a top level, then play a single game of titan fall and play at the top levels in that game, which is the main point im trying to make.

This isn't entirely true. In the case of fighting games, there are a lot of fundamental basics that you don't need to know to pick up. Zoning, timing, reading your opponent, etc. I'll give you that if two fighting games use different systems of control, yes, you'd probably have to learn a bit but the basics of how you engage your opponent are unlikely to change much. It comes down to "I hit you more than you hit me."

As one example of two very different fighting games but with a similar control scheme: King of Fighters and Street Fighter, the way you fight is nearly identical. Most skilled players could probably jump from one game to the other without much difficulty.

For shooters, same type of thing. There are fundamental basics: Aim, timing, reading your opponent, etc. It comes down to "I kill you before you kill me." Even if the system changes, the fundamental aspect hasn't.

It seems like MuffLord64 caught what I meant as I was typing this out. :)

Aradon
05-15-2014, 04:22 PM
More importantly, 'transferrence of skill between two games' is not a quality the courts will try to assess or assert to establish whether or not Hex copies MtG's appearance/substance.

Miyordon
05-15-2014, 04:24 PM
I like how we are comparing twitch games to slower paced thinking games now with these analogies. More apt would be, I like tower defense, I am good at it. I play this other one, I am good there too. You have the same kinds of towers they do the same kinds of damage, I get money for killing guys that try to attack my castle. I spend money on upgrading/more towers.

the_artic_one
05-15-2014, 04:30 PM
This isn't entirely true. In the case of fighting games, there are a lot of fundamental basics that you don't need to know to pick up. Zoning, timing, reading your opponent, etc.

This, most pro fighting game players play all the games at a high level. Here are the Evo 2013 results, there are people who made top 10 in multiple games (and more who made top 10 in one game and placed just outside the top 10 in others). ChrisG made top 10 in Both UMVC3 and Injustice which are fairly different as far as 2d fighters go.

DuroNL
05-15-2014, 04:37 PM
until pve comes out, this game really is just magic with different card names for the most part. by you guy's standards i could start my own online game with the same mechanics as hex but add a mechanic or 2 and keep the resource system but change the way champions work by making them cost mana to use and have requirements and my game would totally not be the same at all.

any player good at magic can instantly come to this game is dominate because this game is literally magic with different names. i literally have not read a rule book or anything for this game, because i play magic. and this game is pretty much magic. when i play mortal kombat i cant just switch to SF and still be as good just starting out. when i play CoD i cant switch to titanfall and still be as good right out the gate. i literally came from magic and my draft record is pretty sick because.... this game is just like magic. like almost exactly.

i do think wizards has a case. if hex loses, whats the worst that happens? they give us our kickstarter money back? then they have to make a more original game? and we can kick start it again? without the pve this game is a carbon copy of magic, all they have to do is show that with pve this game is nothing like magic(which honestly is kind of true) and we're fine. otherwise, you have to be realistic and open your eyes if you dont think this game is a magic copy almost mechanic for mechanic and be prepared to start something new again.

Well this happens all the time in the gaming industry...

Everquest, WoW, Lotro, Rift, GW, ugh the list goes on and on...

Dota, LoL, HoN etc etc

*shrugs* its the gaming industry, if hex would be a paper tcg then i might see what all the fuzz is about... although there was this TCG called Pokemon, back in the days, and thats still around, ask Nintendo how that went!

And your comment on CoD and Titenfall, well that was the case for me :P Titenfall is CoD with the only difference of Mechs in play and bots online in the teams! also you can jump real high, but there are more games where you can do that > Shadow Run ;)

Welcome to the wonderful world of gaming industrie, last one: Fifa and PES...

Cheers

Jeevus
05-15-2014, 04:39 PM
You seem to strive away from the core of this lawsuit. They don't say that Hex is copying the MtG genre, but a lot of designs used in MtG. The most noticeable are the 7 cards in hand, winning/losing conditions, especially having 0 life points, library and stuff like this.

So if their patents would really protect these kinds of designs, than any other card game that have the same win conditions (as far as i know, every TCG or CCG) is subject to sue. If they can't provide a reason for why they didn't, why should Hex getting sued for exactly the same things.

MuffLord4
05-15-2014, 04:41 PM
Also you people seem to forget that they are messing with the internet community.

I predict DDOS attacks and far worse if a lawsuit like this goes through and the wrong people are pissed about it.
Some may call this terrorism, but it isn't. People have just grown weary of bullies and like to scare them a little, not terrorize them.

A won lawsuit like this would make way for big companies to bully out small ones.

frychikn
05-15-2014, 04:52 PM
This, most pro fighting game players play all the games at a high level. Here are the Evo 2013 results, there are people who made top 10 in multiple games (and more who made top 10 in one game and placed just outside the top 10 in others). ChrisG made top 10 in Both UMVC3 and Injustice which are fairly different as far as 2d fighters go.

this has nothing to do with what i said tbh.

justin wong plays SF4 for 4 years he obviously dominates he would not go to a guilty gear tournament after playing for the 1st time and show the same results. that was my argument. but since im sure justin wong has played gg i would have to name another player, but i dont know what players have never played blaz blu or guility gear but play a whole lot of SF4.

i've played card games for at least 16 years, jumping from card game to card game i have always naturally been good at them. but i never just instantly clicked to becoming great the 1st game i played. from magic to..... pokemon, yugioh,vs system, dbz, wow tcg, yuyu hakusho,solforge, magi nation, might and magic, hearthstone,star wars,poker, infinity wars and im sure there are even more... other than hearthstone and yugioh(maybe pokemon is 1 too, but it was my first ccg so hard to put it in that category) i couldnt just pick up those games without reading about rules and instantly become good at them after playing magic. playing card games my whole life i can say i pretty much become good at any card game that i play, but there is a learning curve. going from magic to hex it literally is less than a transition. it really feels like im playing the game game. it feels like if this game wasnt played online i could actually be a judge for this game. even if i played my 1st game when closed beta started.

MuffLord4
05-15-2014, 04:56 PM
It's not really hard to pick up and play hex Frychikn, I'm completely new to TCGs and won a fair share of games back in closed beta when all cards were available and I could carboncopy some of the decks. The only problem as a newcomer in these types of games (unless you are somewhat less intelligent than average) is building a functional deck. The gameplay itself is selfexplanatory if you are able to read and comprehend.

Xenavire
05-15-2014, 05:05 PM
I also want to point out the digital aspect basically drives you - I know 3 people who have never even played a TCG before who can go toe to toe with me because of the visual cues, and I am an old hand at this. Granted, all 3 people are incredibly smart and learn these things quickly, and they also tinkered with Hearthstone during the start of the Hex Alpha, but it was not that hard for them to jump in and start scoring wins.

Deckbuilding is still tougher for them, but they are growing in that aspect too, thanks again to the visual cues - they are picking up the rules very quickly and can translate that into deckbuilding.

Anyone going from MTG to Hex isn't going to be at that much of an advantage really, since they have to spend time relearning things, but they do have the basic advantage of transferable skills (like being able to assess good cards, basic grasp of the flow of gameplay, etc) that would be true of jumping into any other TCG.

frychikn
05-15-2014, 05:10 PM
point is missed once again.

what you're saying is almost like you could pick up magic and play in the pro tour with success.(but think of the hex version i guess) make a magic online account(since you supposedly have never played a ccg) and play in a draft, and tell me how you do.

there are less than intelligent people that play every game, do i believe you beat those players? yea. but you are crazy if you think a "newcomer" is going to beat good players consistently in a card game.

honestly i dont even know what im ranting about anymore. but the main thing i want to say is you are not correlating to my analogy correctly.

Gwaer
05-15-2014, 05:16 PM
It's obvious what you're ranting about. You don't understand skill transference. I'm pretty good at mtg, and hex, the first time I played a Hearthstone arena I wrecked, and have continued to wreck until terminal boredom set in. Same goes for solforge. Once you have a firm grasp of virtually any TCG/CCG you will do quite well against average players of most other *CG's. You doing well in drafts means basically nothing, you have no idea what the skill level is like of those others in the draft, comparing it to a pro tour is pretty ludicrous.

BenRGamer
05-15-2014, 05:16 PM
point is missed once again.

what you're saying is almost like you could pick up magic and play in the pro tour with success.(but think of the hex version i guess) make a magic online account(since you supposedly have never played a ccg) and play in a draft, and tell me how you do.

there are less than intelligent people that play every game, do i believe you beat those players? yea. but you are crazy if you think a "newcomer" is going to beat good players consistently in a card game.

honestly i dont even know what im ranting about anymore. but the main thing i want to say is you are not correlating to my analogy correctly.

Er... just about everybody is a newcomer here?

The game hasn't even been playable for a year yet, and the whole sets only been available and unchanged since March/April.

hashinshin
05-15-2014, 05:21 PM
Also you people seem to forget that they are messing with the internet community.

I predict DDOS attacks and far worse if a lawsuit like this goes through and the wrong people are pissed about it.
Some may call this terrorism, but it isn't. People have just grown weary of bullies and like to scare them a little, not terrorize them.

A won lawsuit like this would make way for big companies to bully out small ones.

That's literally the definition of terrorism. "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion."

Mejis
05-15-2014, 05:28 PM
This thread has likely gone off topic, and I don't have the time to read through 55 pages right now, but can someone point me to if there was any discussion/knowledge on whether CZE would have envisaged this happening at or prior to their KS campaign? Surely such lawsuit by WoTC was something they had to seriously consider?

Anyway, really hoping this whole thing flops and CZE can continue on as planned.

Xenavire
05-15-2014, 05:29 PM
This thread has likely gone off topic, and I don't have the time to read through 55 pages right now, but can someone point me to if there was any discussion/knowledge on whether CZE would have envisaged this happening at or prior to their KS campaign? Surely such lawsuit by WoTC was something they had to seriously consider?

Anyway, really hoping this whole thing flops and CZE can continue on as planned.

Considering they filed for Hex LLC before they even entered kickstarter, yes, I believe this was something they planned for.

MuffLord4
05-15-2014, 05:34 PM
That's literally the definition of terrorism. "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion."

I don't think stuff like boycotts, DDos attacks and a few hatemails can be considered terrorism.

EntropyBall
05-15-2014, 05:34 PM
It's obvious what you're ranting about. You don't understand skill transference. I'm pretty good at mtg, and hex, the first time I played a Hearthstone arena I wrecked, and have continued to wreck until terminal boredom set in. Same goes for solforge. Once you have a firm grasp of virtually any TCG/CCG you will do quite well against average players of most other *CG's. You doing well in drafts means basically nothing, you have no idea what the skill level is like of those others in the draft, comparing it to a pro tour is pretty ludicrous.

You guys are missing the point. It isn't that he's OMGamazing at CCGs, its that if you know the rules of MTG, you can learn the rules of Hex in probably 5 minutes. ALL of the rules. You have to learn what a few MTG keyword equivalents are, you need to learn the meaning of threshold and charge, you need to know that Crush is not a perfect analog to Trample. You need to learn Escalation, Inspire, and I think that's it. The rules of MTG/Hex are extremely complex, this isn't like Hearthstone where you can learn the rules quickly just because you've played CCGs and HS is simple.

Yoss
05-15-2014, 05:37 PM
http://www.joystiq.com/2013/03/22/kaiju-combat-kickstarter-on-hold-over-wizards-of-the-coast-trade/

Here's a great example of Wizards bullying. They'll take anything they can get. It was sued because "Kaiju" similar to "Kaijudo" in it's name when Kaiju is a japanese term for "Strange Creature". Seriously. It was that sad.

Really, WOTC? Really? That's like if I had a game called "hamburger" and you had one named "ham" and I sued you for it. Ham is from a pig, hamburger is from a cow. My three year old can understand that much.

However, the fact that WOTC throws around frivolous lawsuits in general doesn't bear on any particular case, does it?


http://www.gamedevelopment.com/view/feature/187385/clone_wars_the_five_most_.php?print=1

Bloggers can make a difference. The court relied heavily on video game bloggers' reactions to Yeti Town, many of whom called the games similar and pointed out that it was obviously inspired by Triple Town. The court anointed bloggers to be quintessential "ordinary observers" and wrote that they had found the two games "substantially similar."

Matt and friends, get to work!


Here's a summary of links I found useful as I've read through these hundreds of posts.

When "Hex Entertainment, LLC" came about (just before KS in 2013):
http://www.bizapedia.com/ca/HEX-ENTERTAINMENT-LLC.html

Lawyer who plays MTG, give a breakdown and opinion:
http://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/05/understanding-the-wizards-v-hex-lawsuit-in-plain-english/

About Copyrights on video games (duplicate of link in quote above):
http://www.gamedevelopment.com/view/feature/187385/clone_wars_the_five_most_.php?print=1

More about Trade Dress (for websites):
http://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/x/273828/IT+internet/Trade+Dress+Can+Be+Viable+Means+of+Protecting+Webs ites+from+Competitors+LookAlike+Sites

Richard Garfield on the evolution of games, and MTG's heritage in particular:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/238b

Also, thank you to the various actual lawyers we have posting for their insights scattered throughout.

Masquerade
05-15-2014, 05:39 PM
My take on it is that yes, they are basically the same core game, however Hex builds on and improves the core game in ways that Wizards would never do. I understand why Wizards is making the lawsuit, but I really want Hex to win.

larryhl
05-15-2014, 05:50 PM
My take on it is that yes, they are basically the same core game, however Hex builds on and improves the core game in ways that Wizards would never do. I understand why Wizards is making the lawsuit, but I really want Hex to win.

Most suits like this aren't really about winning. They're more about "Give us money so we don't bankrupt you with legal fees."

Jaunt
05-15-2014, 05:52 PM
Most suits like this aren't really about winning. They're more about "Give us money so we don't bankrupt you with legal fees."

You think Hasbro will settle for something short of total annihilation? I admire your optimism. I think they would do anything to keep the genie in the bottle.

Yoss, awesome compilation of links.

frychikn
05-15-2014, 05:56 PM
You guys are missing the point. It isn't that he's OMGamazing at CCGs, its that if you know the rules of MTG, you can learn the rules of Hex in probably 5 minutes. ALL of the rules. You have to learn what a few MTG keyword equivalents are, you need to learn the meaning of threshold and charge, you need to know that Crush is not a perfect analog to Trample. You need to learn Escalation, Inspire, and I think that's it. The rules of MTG/Hex are extremely complex, this isn't like Hearthstone where you can learn the rules quickly just because you've played CCGs and HS is simple.

thank you!

Gwaer
05-15-2014, 06:00 PM
I still don't think he has a point. If I'm good at one fps, I'm good at most fps, if I'm good at one x genre game, I am likely to be good at any other example of that genre of game, because all of them use the same core themes and mechanics at some level or another. How well one player of a game picks up another game is irrelevant to anything.

frychikn
05-15-2014, 06:02 PM
not all good magic players are good at poker if that disproves anything you just said.

Ashenai
05-15-2014, 06:05 PM
you need to know that Crush is not a perfect analog to Trample.

Crush is actually a perfect analog to the way Trample worked in Magic before Sixth Edition rules. The fact that people bring this up as an example of the differences is a little sad. "Well yeah all of these rules work exactly like how Magic works now, but there's this one that works like Magic did in 1999! Check out all the innovation!"

Aradon
05-15-2014, 06:09 PM
People would be better off bringing up the gameplay changes in relation to adapting to the digital space: how thresholds are the way the are to reduce screen clutter and tapping repetition, and the changes to how the chain works to facilitate online play.

Rather than talking up the nitpicky differences about how blood is actually purple and not black.

Dynimix
05-15-2014, 06:12 PM
not all good magic players are good at poker if that disproves anything you just said.


In my mind this is like saying that because I am good at action RPGs, I inherently am good at turn-based RPGs. One relies on careful RPG knowledge and reflexes while the other relies on good strategy and team management.

Jaunt
05-15-2014, 06:13 PM
In order to decide whether Hex is substantially similar, the court will look at the similarities, not the differences. You can't write a fantasy trilogy, end it with the last chapter of Harry Potter, and say "but look, it's almost entirely original". Even if Hex was played in 5 dimensions and had 60,000 unique cards, some of which are invented during the middle of play, Hasbro's claims would still exist.

So no, there's not a lot of point in bringing up all the differences, unless you're just trying to convince people to play it. Which, you know, isn't a bad thing.

MuffLord4
05-15-2014, 06:20 PM
In order to decide whether Hex is substantially similar, the court will look at the similarities, not the differences. You can't write a fantasy trilogy, end it with the last chapter of Harry Potter, and say "but look, it's almost entirely original". Even if Hex was played in 5 dimensions and had 60,000 unique cards, some of which are invented during the middle of play, Hasbro's claims would still exist.

So no, there's not a lot of point in bringing up all the differences, unless you're just trying to convince people to play it. Which, you know, isn't a bad thing.

Point is, games will always be similar with just a few differences, the differences are what makes the game not a copy.

You could remove most shooters from the market if it weren't for differences.

Hasbro winning this lawsuit would be a spit in the face for us consumers (you know, the people that matter) as it would tamper the market and create monopolys with shitty products because nobody would be able to come up with something.

This case is like CoD trying to sue Crysis because of the obvious similarities!11

Player plays in first person
Shoots at people
Has health
Uses guns
Runs through levels.

Jaunt
05-15-2014, 06:36 PM
Hasbro winning this lawsuit would be a spit in the face for us consumers (you know, the people that matter) as it would tamper the market and create monopolys with shitty products because nobody would be able to come up with something.


Hate to break it to you, but it's the people who fund congressional election campaigns who matter. The fact that you refer to us as consumers shows you've done a good job internalizing the way they talk about us.

You can draw all the analogies you like. It's not going to change the test that the judge will use. If you don't like the state of copyright and related law, then petition your politicians for redress. I assume from your diction you aren't American, but given that content controllers often justify their overreach by saying "you need to pass stricter laws to harmonize with the rest of their world" and pushing it through international treaties, you aren't completely helpless.

In theory.

Aradon
05-15-2014, 06:40 PM
In order to decide whether Hex is substantially similar, the court will look at the similarities, not the differences. You can't write a fantasy trilogy, end it with the last chapter of Harry Potter, and say "but look, it's almost entirely original". Even if Hex was played in 5 dimensions and had 60,000 unique cards, some of which are invented during the middle of play, Hasbro's claims would still exist.

So no, there's not a lot of point in bringing up all the differences, unless you're just trying to convince people to play it. Which, you know, isn't a bad thing.

No, I realize that. I just meant in relation to trying to distinguish the two, or show how Hex isn't exactly the same as MtG.

I think pretty much it's just work up to the lawyers for Hex at this point. They have to illustrate that Wizards' patents are overly broad, and that their product is not designed to visually mimic MtG.

Jaunt
05-15-2014, 06:41 PM
Oh, okay. My bad.

mach
05-15-2014, 07:29 PM
Considering they filed for Hex LLC before they even entered kickstarter, yes, I believe this was something they planned for.

If they expected and planned for it before the Kickstarter, they were willfully deceptive by not mentioning it in the "Risks and challenges" section of the Kickstarter.

So let's give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that the Hex Entertainment thing was done for other reasons. Of course, that does mean that they didn't see this coming and so didn't prepare for it.

Eklypz
05-15-2014, 07:33 PM
I was looking around and can't find anything but anyone have any idea when this will go before a judge for the preliminary things, such as injunctions and such?

zadies
05-15-2014, 07:42 PM
It won't get a date until after hex llc files a response.

GatticusFinch
05-15-2014, 08:08 PM
I was looking around and can't find anything but anyone have any idea when this will go before a judge for the preliminary things, such as injunctions and such?

In federal court you get 21 days to respond to a complaint. They might ask for more time, file a motion to dismiss, or answer the complaint, but something has to happen in the next three weeks.

Bells
05-15-2014, 08:08 PM
If they expected and planned for it before the Kickstarter, they were willfully deceptive by not mentioning it in the "Risks and challenges" section of the Kickstarter.

"We might be copying this other game of a compny 100 fold the size of ours so maybe we will get sued for that but please donate anyway" ....are you fucking serious?


What other products they have LIKE hex? None? Yeah... so there you go... that is also another reason to give it it's own little quarter. Afterall, it was a venture born form a kickstarter. it was something completely new and unique to the company from people who admittedly are not Game-Maker veterans... it is only common sense to not risk everything else you have built up to that point on the chance of this one thing working or not... and it doesn't have to have anything to do with MTG at all!!


Just the sheer treat from WoTC was already enough to put some of you growling at Cory and the team's neck... just waiting for a pseudo-reason to bite hard. That fucking shameful to see and this thread is riffled with it...

Even if Wizards decided to decline further litigation, the sheer damage that the community can do itself is more than enough to bury this whole thing...

It was said time and time again, there are articles, links and analysis pointing out in detail just how feeble their claims actually are. And comparing Magic as it is NOW to Hex how it is NOW it's fucking dumb. The full game proposed in the Kickstarter, once it's feature complete, is quite different from MTG... and if you want to compare original versions, they are still quite apart.

Regardless, hex has it's right to exist. But people need to calm down a little bit. Allow CZE to collect themselves properly. Of course they knew things could go this way... they have deals to set the game in other countries (Like Latin america), they have events and tournaments shaping up... and they haven't let us down since the start. They absolutely earned a modicum of trust and patience.

Litigation like this is not super fast to deal with. Calm the fuck down and wait for their position to the fact...

And for crying out loud, just think of the image you guys are panting of this game and its community with the sheer spam of threads, arm-chair lawyers and ''me thinks'' ramblings all over the forums, trying to read minds and the future... i would'nt be surprised at all to learn that some of you are causing more damage to hex now in the long run than the lawsuit from MTG... geez.

GatticusFinch
05-15-2014, 08:11 PM
Was that some sort of reverse troll rant? There are at least three people in this thread who are actual lawyer. Their claims are not feeble. This is going to be a legitimate fight.

ossuary
05-15-2014, 08:15 PM
Speaking of clones!

Here's something fun to ease the tension.

Replicator's Gambit on Sword Trainer + Master Theorycrafter with the "mill on enters play" gem = mill 62 for only 2 resources. :)

1831

Xexist
05-15-2014, 08:15 PM
If they expected and planned for it before the Kickstarter, they were willfully deceptive by not mentioning it in the "Risks and challenges" section of the Kickstarter.

So let's give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that the Hex Entertainment thing was done for other reasons. Of course, that does mean that they didn't see this coming and so didn't prepare for it.

Planned for doesnt mean they thought for sure it would happen. Just that they had considered the possibility.

AswanJaguar
05-15-2014, 08:19 PM
Was that some sort of reverse troll rant? There are at least three people in this thread who are actual lawyer. Their claims are not feeble. This is going to be a legitimate fight.

I'm optimistic that Hex will come out the other end of this just fine, but Gatticus is correct here. This could end very, very badly for us and it's out of our control. My faith lies with the due diligence (that I assume was) done before embarking on this project and the fact that while Cryptozoic is no Hasbro, they have access to a very good legal team and will be getting support from basically anyone in the industry who isn't Wizards of the Coast.

Hieronymous
05-15-2014, 08:19 PM
If they expected and planned for it before the Kickstarter, they were willfully deceptive by not mentioning it in the "Risks and challenges" section of the Kickstarter.

So let's give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that the Hex Entertainment thing was done for other reasons. Of course, that does mean that they didn't see this coming and so didn't prepare for it.

I'm pretty sure that the topic came up during the kickstarter and was answered with posts to the effect of "we've had our lawyers look at it and we think we're in the clear."

Polaritie
05-15-2014, 08:37 PM
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/238b

Reading this, it appears early forms of MtG were playtested broadly in a public space, amongst a very large group of people.

The article implies that it was a long term process, and so probably occurred more than a year prior to the patent's filing date. The article has images of early playtest cards, which are clearly the origin of the modern game.

One key bit:

The huge amount of dissent about what should and should not be part of the card mix has led players to make their own versions for playtesting—a significant task that involves designing, constructing, shuffling, and distributing about 4000 cards.

This was not controlled playtesting, this was being released into the wild and iterated on based on the feedback. This should beat the R&D exception to the one-year rule, since clearly derivative works were being created independently. Further going through the article, the cards were essentially in circulation - traded, sold, etc. in the playtest version. That's not really testing at that point, is it?

And that's the crux of it - that the game was publically in use more than a year before the patent was filed, and thus the patent is invalid on grounds of novelty. Magic the Gathering is the prior art for its own patent.


I love MtG, and enjoy playing it, but this lawsuit needs to just go die in a fire.

Leingod
05-15-2014, 09:08 PM
While the lawsuit doesn't have much to stand on for anyone that is fairly informed of the 2 games, a random jury/judge is up in the air. At best for CZE, Hasbro will probably be able to drain all the KS money from Hex thanks to being able to play money chicken. It's a shame, but stifling competition is what the marketplace is all about. I can only thank god that Capcom and ID weren't smart enough to do the same thing or I'd never have gotten to enjoy things like Blazblue/GG or Unreal Tournament.

mach
05-15-2014, 09:45 PM
I'm pretty sure that the topic came up during the kickstarter and was answered with posts to the effect of "we've had our lawyers look at it and we think we're in the clear."

That would support the theory that they didn't seriously expect or plan for this.

This makes a lot of sense, actually. It explains the rush to monetization which baffled a lot of us. They were contacted by Hasbro, realized they were about to get sued, and decided to monetize early so they'd have the funds they needed to fight it.

MuffLord4
05-16-2014, 12:31 AM
People here need to think about the gaming community, a lawsuit like this going through would be bullshit and really bad for the gaming community as a whole.

This isn't about intellectual property or copying 1 product (because if you have any sort of gaming experience, the sort of copying that hex did happens ALL the time, take good aspects, build on them, improve, reskin, done), it's about a company pissing on it's customers by trying to eliminate a BETTER product instead of competing with it.

The market needs competition, "Competition envigorates the business" as we germans say. No competition=stale business and stale products. Any1 who wants this to go through is just stupid as hell and has no ground to stand on.

Gwaer
05-16-2014, 12:36 AM
In america we have another saying; "if you have any other option, no matter how bad or unrelated it's not a monopoly, now stop being a hippy you idiot child and living in your socialist fantasyworld and let the free market and life+100 years copyright and incredibly overbroad patents that last for a generation do their job and support the growth of a diverse and incredible free market wonderland, also trickle down economics have proven incredibly successful, go Reagan."

MuffLord4
05-16-2014, 12:39 AM
In america we have another saying; "if you have any other option, no matter how bad or unrelated it's not a monopoly, now stop being a hippy you idiot child and living in your socialist fantasyworld and let the free market and life+100 years copyright and incredibly overbroad patents that last for a generation do their job and support the growth of a diverse and incredible free market wonderland, also trickle down economics have proven incredibly successful, go Reagan."

That's BS, I hope you're being as sarcastic as it sounds :P

AstaSyneri
05-16-2014, 12:41 AM
This thread has likely gone off topic, and I don't have the time to read through 55 pages right now, but can someone point me to if there was any discussion/knowledge on whether CZE would have envisaged this happening at or prior to their KS campaign? Surely such lawsuit by WoTC was something they had to seriously consider?

Anyway, really hoping this whole thing flops and CZE can continue on as planned.

You can't be a publisher in the CCG/TCG world and not have heard about this. If CZE/Cory had come from Blizzard blindly to do this, he might have fallen into his trap. But for once he did not - he has some good experience in publishing the WoW TCG, plus those guys on the design staff are veteran TCG'ers. It's unfathomable that they could design a game inspired by Magic, without checking the ramifications.


People would be better off bringing up the gameplay changes in relation to adapting to the digital space: how thresholds are the way the are to reduce screen clutter and tapping repetition, and the changes to how the chain works to facilitate online play.

Rather than talking up the nitpicky differences about how blood is actually purple and not black.

About sticking to the three areas that are actually contended: Copyright, Trade Dress, Patent?

In my layman's opinion trade dress is the easiest to dismiss. Regardless of the interface - in order to get there you need to make an account, where you will unmistakenly see whether you are playing MtGO or Hex. There is no way you can mistake Hex for Magic (and grab the "wrong bottle of detergent" by accident). Even if the actual game interface were an issue - look at 20 other computer games that use card battles and you'll see many similarities, because, frankly, there is only so much screen estate to go with, best practices on where to place things to maximize ease-of-use, and many of the same elements to fit on the screen.

Copyright goes out the windows as well, imho: The names are different, there is no identical plot (that Wizards duelling stuff is pretty inane anyway). Graphics, Art, nothing is stolen. You can't copyright ideas.

The most interesting question may be the patent issue. A) Is the patent still valid at all? B) Does the patent apply to an online game? C) If yes at all, how far does it apply, given that for a card game the patent is already very, if not too broad. D) Can you actually game mechanics, when the patent office says you cannot? E) Does the patent apply to a game that is not officially release yet, and has only given very limited access to its investors (interesting question: Would it have been better to keep the game under wraps till September, when presumably the patent runs out)?

IMO it's going to be very interesting to see how things are going to be argued.

A little bright spot: All the gaming magazines are picking up on the legal battle and CZE is becoming the proverbial David vs. WotC the Goliath. I would not be surprised if CZE did get the help it needed to win this battle, simple for the fact that afterwards the gains will be so huge, that they'll easily offset the cost for the lawsuit.

Flight
05-16-2014, 01:04 AM
Most suits like this aren't really about winning. They're more about "Give us money so we don't bankrupt you with legal fees."


That's generally the case, but I disagree here. Many elements of Hex are superior to MtG not least the online client which represents a serious threat to WotCs business and profits. WotC are either all in or, as I suspect, will make an approach to buy out the company.

zadies
05-16-2014, 05:32 AM
The trade dress issue is actually funny to me because there is no way in hell you could confuse the MTGO client with the Hex client and given hex doesn't have paper cards.... there is no way you can confuse it with WotC paper product. Given that DotP doesn't have any real sort of online offering you can't even really confuse that either.

Bells
05-16-2014, 05:33 AM
Was that some sort of reverse troll rant? There are at least three people in this thread who are actual lawyer. Their claims are not feeble. This is going to be a legitimate fight.

For each one of these 3 lawyers you cite in this 60 page thread i can point out 3 people who call themselves lawyers and are not and 3 more who act like they are and are not. Thus, point remain.

Yeah, it's a real fight. Never denied this. Never stated otherwise.

Point still stands... self-inflicted wounds are stupid and should be avoided by the community.

Jaunt
05-16-2014, 06:25 AM
So, uh, who are the 9 fake lawyers in this thread?

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 06:27 AM
You can't be a publisher in the CCG/TCG world and not have heard about this. If CZE/Cory had come from Blizzard blindly to do this, he might have fallen into his trap. But for once he did not - he has some good experience in publishing the WoW TCG, plus those guys on the design staff are veteran TCG'ers. It's unfathomable that they could design a game inspired by Magic, without checking the ramifications.



About sticking to the three areas that are actually contended: Copyright, Trade Dress, Patent?

In my layman's opinion trade dress is the easiest to dismiss. Regardless of the interface - in order to get there you need to make an account, where you will unmistakenly see whether you are playing MtGO or Hex. There is no way you can mistake Hex for Magic (and grab the "wrong bottle of detergent" by accident). Even if the actual game interface were an issue - look at 20 other computer games that use card battles and you'll see many similarities, because, frankly, there is only so much screen estate to go with, best practices on where to place things to maximize ease-of-use, and many of the same elements to fit on the screen.

Copyright goes out the windows as well, imho: The names are different, there is no identical plot (that Wizards duelling stuff is pretty inane anyway). Graphics, Art, nothing is stolen. You can't copyright ideas.

The most interesting question may be the patent issue. A) Is the patent still valid at all? B) Does the patent apply to an online game? C) If yes at all, how far does it apply, given that for a card game the patent is already very, if not too broad. D) Can you actually game mechanics, when the patent office says you cannot? E) Does the patent apply to a game that is not officially release yet, and has only given very limited access to its investors (interesting question: Would it have been better to keep the game under wraps till September, when presumably the patent runs out)?

IMO it's going to be very interesting to see how things are going to be argued.

A little bright spot: All the gaming magazines are picking up on the legal battle and CZE is becoming the proverbial David vs. WotC the Goliath. I would not be surprised if CZE did get the help it needed to win this battle, simple for the fact that afterwards the gains will be so huge, that they'll easily offset the cost for the lawsuit.

I see it a lot like this as well. Patent is the sticky wicket.

DocX
05-16-2014, 06:28 AM
IMHO they have at least an ethical obligation to say something as part of the KS updates, since they have not completely delivered on their KS rewards promises yet and this is something which might affect their ability to do so.

Their primary obligation is to making the game successful. If they are able to provide information within the guidance of their legal counsel, then it would be nice if they did so. If they are not able to get their legal counsel to agree to providing an update, then their obligation is to follow the advice of that counsel. Period.

DocX
05-16-2014, 06:40 AM
I guess this is why they created Hex Entertainment LLC. Guess the talks with WotC spooked them.

Actually, this is standard practice for a lot of companies doing a specific venture. Film Studios create an independent, wholly owned subsidiary for each film they make to limit the liability of any individual production and prevent problems with an individual production from being passed on to the studio as a whole.

It's just being smart about how you go about arranging things to prevent possible problems down the line.

Kami
05-16-2014, 06:41 AM
Their primary obligation is to making the game successful. If they are able to provide information within the guidance of their legal counsel, then it would be nice if they did so. If they are not able to get their legal counsel to agree to providing an update, then their obligation is to follow the advice of that counsel. Period.

Exactly.

The point is to win the war, not just a single battle. They may be getting hit on the PR front right now but that's all moot if they win the lawsuit.

Bells
05-16-2014, 06:47 AM
damage control is still a thing though, sadly.

Because, to be perfectly honest... MTG and Hex can totally co-exist. They don't even need to overlap each other to be quite honest... i played MTG before Mythics, Foils, Planeswalkers and all that good stuff and i would still enjoy a physical game on the kitchen table with friends here and there and then invest my time in Hex in another manner. I'm super curious about the PVE mode and all it's possibilities and i'm even excited about the change of entering a competitive scene on the ground floor... you can't even do that with Magic unless you have a couple K's around to spare and take a couple of courses apparently these days...

But now, you look at the reddits and the main forums and it's just brewing this scene of Hex Vs MTG that i really don't like...

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 06:50 AM
Exactly.

The point is to win the war, not just a single battle. They may be getting hit on the PR front right now but that's all moot if they win the lawsuit.

"Your lawsuit never looks as good as it does on the day that you file your Complaint."

The Plaintiff (here, WotC) is the only one that has had a chance to plead it's case yet, and even now there are huge holes in their claims. Hex will file an Answer, and in that Answer it will state it's position. They've got a shade under 3 weeks to do it, so I suggest everyone just cool their jets. I suspect you'll love what's in their Answer.

Kami
05-16-2014, 06:53 AM
I see this turning into a Pepsi vs Coke battle.

Poetic
05-16-2014, 06:59 AM
Worst case scenario, how long do I have to enjoy my precious hex and card collection? Friday night, gonna get my drink on tonight and draft drunk.

Seriously though, I'm surprised they're letting all these threads remain. Most aren't doing any good and just making people paranoid. I don't know anything about law, so I'll ignore it all until there's some resolution good or bad.

Jaunt
05-16-2014, 07:01 AM
damage control is still a thing though, sadly.

Because, to be perfectly honest... MTG and Hex can totally co-exist. They don't even need to overlap each other to be quite honest... i played MTG before Mythics, Foils, Planeswalkers and all that good stuff and i would still enjoy a physical game on the kitchen table with friends here and there and then invest my time in Hex in another manner. I'm super curious about the PVE mode and all it's possibilities and i'm even excited about the change of entering a competitive scene on the ground floor... you can't even do that with Magic unless you have a couple K's around to spare and take a couple of courses apparently these days...

But now, you look at the reddits and the main forums and it's just brewing this scene of Hex Vs MTG that i really don't like...

All the people who are raging over the similarities between Hex and Magic would've raged anyway if/when they first discovered Hex. It's not like they need the lawsuit to point out that they both use power/toughness and a handful of keywords. The way I see it, lots more people are hearing about Hex than would have otherwise. If Hex wins or settles the suit, those same people will hear about it, and a fraction will start playing. If Hex loses...it really doesn't matter who thinks what about it. Market confidence today is so much less important than the character of the final judgment.

Still waiting to hear about those 9 fake lawyers, btdubs.

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 07:04 AM
Worst case scenario, how long do I have to enjoy my precious hex and card collection? Friday night, gonna get my drink on tonight and draft drunk.

Seriously though, I'm surprised they're letting all these threads remain. Most aren't doing any good and just making people paranoid. I don't know anything about law, so I'll ignore it all until there's some resolution good or bad.

They haven't requested a preliminary injunction, so if this case goes to trial it could take years.

ossuary
05-16-2014, 07:08 AM
They haven't requested a preliminary injunction, so if this case goes to trial it could take years.

Uh... yes they did. Like, on page one.

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 07:10 AM
Uh... yes they did. Like, on page one.

No, they didn't. They've asked the Court to grant an injunction at the trial. A preliminary injunction goes into place during the pendancy of the case. They haven't requested that, unless they've done it in a secondary filing that I haven't seen.

Bells
05-16-2014, 07:16 AM
Still waiting to hear about those 9 fake lawyers, btdubs.

Yeah... if you couldn't understand that, then there is nothing i can do for you, sorry...

Erukk
05-16-2014, 07:19 AM
I see this turning into a Pepsi vs Coke battle.

Time to set up blind "taste tests" spoofs of the old commercials. Pick random people off the street and ask them, "Which do you prefer: this modern looking Hex, or this MTGO that looks like it belongs on Windows95?"

GatticusFinch
05-16-2014, 07:21 AM
Ah, yes, that old internet chestnut where if someone with actual experience in the area you are bullshiting about calls you out, just claim they are lying.

mach
05-16-2014, 07:24 AM
Their primary obligation is to making the game successful. If they are able to provide information within the guidance of their legal counsel, then it would be nice if they did so. If they are not able to get their legal counsel to agree to providing an update, then their obligation is to follow the advice of that counsel. Period.

If they can't get their legal counsel to allow them to at least say something roughly equivalent to Hasbro's press release on this issue, they need better legal counsel.

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 07:25 AM
If they can't get their legal counsel to allow them to at least say something roughly equivalent to Hasbro's press release on this issue, they need better legal counsel.

I completely disagree. They may do a press release, but if I were their attorney I'd advise against even that. Any public statements by Hex LLC or CZE officers/employees are admissible at trial.

Jaunt
05-16-2014, 07:30 AM
What are you hoping to hear from a press release? It will go something along the lines of "Hasbro's claims are meritless, and we're reviewing our options with our lawyers. Hex will keep going until a court orders it to stop."

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 07:39 AM
What are you hoping to hear from a press release? It will go something along the lines of "Hasbro's claims are meritless, and we're reviewing our options with our lawyers. Hex will keep going until a court orders it to stop."

Exactly. Hell, we can mock up the unofficial press release here if you guys want:

"Hex LLC and its parent company Cryptozoic would like to assure our investors and loyal fans that we are working with our legal team to address the claims recently made by Wizards of the Coast. We believe these claims are baseless and WotC is bringing this suit as a bully tactic against a small independent company that it sees as a threat to its bottom line. We intend to actively contest this frivolous suit and we believe that justice will ultimately prevail. We can assure our customers that their gaming experience will not be affected during the pendancy of this suit and that they will be able to enjoy HEX for years to come."

mmac900
05-16-2014, 07:49 AM
I completely disagree. They may do a press release, but if I were their attorney I'd advise against even that. Any public statements by Hex LLC or CZE officers/employees are admissible at trial.

What could be so bad about saying that the allegations have no foundation and that cze will fight till the end?

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 07:54 AM
What could be so bad about saying that the allegations have no foundation and that cze will fight till the end?

By it's very nature, it's worse than saying nothing at all.

Dinotropia
05-16-2014, 08:18 AM
This is unfortunately a truism in the legal system. "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law." People have the assumption that if you are innocent it is best to defend yourself. But this is not actually the case. I don't agree with those saying that the community should stop commenting -- I have learned much during this discussion and I think some of it is healthy. However, CZE is wise to not make any knee-jerk moves. It has only been a day.

Jaunt
05-16-2014, 08:22 AM
Hyde, you're making me want to link Don't Talk to Cops.

CZE will do the smartest thing they can think of doing, and all the interweb pearlclutching in the world won't change it, so everyone just buckle up and maybe try to learn something.

GatticusFinch
05-16-2014, 08:30 AM
This is unfortunately a truism in the legal system. "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law." People have the assumption that if you are innocent it is best to defend yourself. But this is not actually the case. I don't agree with those saying that the community should stop commenting -- I have learned much during this discussion and I think some of it is healthy. However, CZE is wise to not make any knee-jerk moves. It has only been a day.


Criminal cases =/= civil cases. You actually don't have a right to remain silent in civil cases, unless you want to lose. A failure to respond to an accusation in a civil context is often some of the most damning evidence.

Axle
05-16-2014, 08:33 AM
If Wizards tries to insert a MTG deck into HEX we should make it 3 color/shard decks. Only basic lands, no dual lands. Humans vs. whatever they have. In the later turns the difference in resource systems would really show.

Dinotropia
05-16-2014, 08:35 AM
Criminal cases =/= civil cases. You actually don't have a right to remain silent in civil cases, unless you want to lose. A failure to respond to an accusation in a civil context is often some of the most damning evidence.

Oh absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that they won't have to make a response. I am aware of the difference between civil and criminal cases. However, that response should be well crafted and not immediately to us in less than 24 hours. That is all I was trying to say.

GatticusFinch
05-16-2014, 08:37 AM
Oh absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that they won't have to make a response. I am aware of the difference between civil and criminal cases. However, that response should be well crafted and not immediately to us in less than 24 hours. That is all I was trying to say.

Oh, I wasn't sure who you were referring to. Yes, the PR statement is no big deal. It's going to be the usual "we look forward to proving to the Court" nonsense.

I'm more interested to see the Friday kickstarter update.

mach
05-16-2014, 08:39 AM
Oh absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that they won't have to make a response. I am aware of the difference between civil and criminal cases. However, that response should be well crafted and not immediately to us in less than 24 hours. That is all I was trying to say.

It's only been a day since we learned about this, but they've known for a while. Remember, Hasbro first approached them privately with some offer (which they refused). So they've had some time to properly craft a response.

GatticusFinch
05-16-2014, 08:47 AM
It's only been a day since we learned about this, but they've known for a while. Remember, Hasbro first approached them privately with some offer (which they refused). So they've had some time to properly craft a response.

Doesn't work that way.

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 08:51 AM
It's only been a day since we learned about this, but they've known for a while. Remember, Hasbro first approached them privately with some offer (which they refused). So they've had some time to properly craft a response.

Not sure whether it was an offer or demand. Probably a very strong arm demand: "Stop development right now and give us all your profits, or we'll file suit." Now, WotC gets to say "CZE didn't want to settle the matter so we had no choice but to sue (implying: we're the good guys, we're trying to be reasonable and avoid a lawsuit).

mmac900
05-16-2014, 08:57 AM
By it's very nature, it's worse than saying nothing at all.

So cze saying a generic statement will hurt them in court? I dont think so.

It shows confidence more then anything.

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 09:03 AM
So cze saying a generic statement will hurt them in court? I dont think so.

It shows confidence more then anything.

There's always a small percentage that it could. Somewhere above 0.0 percent.

There is a 0.0 percent chance it would help them in Court, however. Weight the risks versus the rewards

Additionally, why is anyone chomping at the bit to hear a generic statement from Hex?

GatticusFinch
05-16-2014, 09:05 AM
It shows confidence more then anything.

It doesn't. It's meaningless. Did WotC's PR statement make you think they were going to win?

Bells
05-16-2014, 09:07 AM
Because they are scared and they want something. Anything. To hold on to and put under a microscope and diseected what ''it could possibly mean''....

and once they get it, they will ask for more details... using as argument ''Oh but they already made a statement, clearly it would be in good faith for them to give us, faithful backers something more than just some generic words'' and so on and so forth.

For me, i just want CZE to know they have people supporting them not just because we are invested (mentally and financially) Into Hex, but because we actually truly believe it is a great thing that will become even better.

I don't want them to do anything fast, i just want them to do it right. I'm not a lawyer so i'm not going to play one... i'll just trust them as i have trusted thus far.

EntropyBall
05-16-2014, 09:09 AM
It doesn't. It's meaningless. Did WotC's PR statement make you think they were going to win?
Honestly I think it made a lot of people think they were going to win, because they read it and just said "wow, look at all these great points". Maybe not people on these forums, but elsewhere where they don't know HEx as well. I don't dispute the broader point about the value of CZE's PR statement though. :)

rjselzler
05-16-2014, 09:11 AM
It doesn't. It's meaningless.

I appreciate all the perspective from the people who have actual law-related backgrounds in this thread. Just wanted to get that out there.

I would assume that CZE has lawyers and is listening to them. That seems wise. I'm good with radio silence in that context.

koobiak
05-16-2014, 09:14 AM
The reason WoTC released a press statement was to try to stop us from paying money for the product. It is smart to try to strangle Hex when it is at its most vulnerable before a serious revenue stream from an open beta starts rolling in.

They want to scare customers away from making an investment in Hex. Time will tell if the strategy worked, but there is at least a chance that they are bringing more people to the game by doing this than they are pushing away.

ossuary
05-16-2014, 09:15 AM
Honestly, people are going to have to get used to the idea of not really knowing what is going on with all this (officially) for quite some time. CZE may make a press release, they may not. They have absolutely no obligation to say anything to us about this (and doing so could potentially cause them harm down the road, though that's unlikely). They have more important things to worry about right now than people who are incapable of patience and perspective starting to panic over something they have no control or influence over.

Take a deep breath and count to a few thousand. We'll find out more when there's more to find out. In the meantime, I'll see you in the tournament lobby. :)

mach
05-16-2014, 09:15 AM
It doesn't. It's meaningless. Did WotC's PR statement make you think they were going to win?

Meaningless from a legal perspective, sure. But from a PR perspective if Hasbro puts out a press release and CZE stays eerily silent it looks like Hasbro has the stronger case.

Besides, isn't this standard procedure for this kind of thing? Company A puts out a press release saying "we are suing the evil villains at Company B for stealing our valuable IP which we painstakingly developed with our blood, sweat and tears." Company B responds with a press release saying "Company A's lawsuit is entirely frivolous and without merit and we look forward to crushing them mercilessly in court." It may all be meaningless, but deviate from the usual pattern and people start to get worried.

Marsden
05-16-2014, 09:19 AM
Honestly I think it made a lot of people think they were going to win, because they read it and just said "wow, look at all these great points". Maybe not people on these forums, but elsewhere where they don't know HEx as well. I don't dispute the broader point about the value of CZE's PR statement though. :)

That wasn't the Hasbro PR statement. You're thinking of their legal filing.

The PR was "We've filed a lawsuit."

GatticusFinch
05-16-2014, 09:24 AM
The Complaint makes them look like they are going to win because that's what a Complaint is supposed to do. If you can't make out a case against the Defendant in your own words, why would you even be filing the lawsuit?

The fact of the matter is, WotC made points because they have some points to make. This is not an open and shut case in my eyes. This is not a case that will be resolved on a Motion to Dismiss. It may not even be resolved by summary judgment because a number of these issues are questions of fact which cannot even be resolved by the judge. There are even novel legal questions considering the trend recently of broadening copyright protection to strike down on copiers.

I guess what I am saying is, strap yourselves in because we're now all along for the ride unless this thing settles.

Xenavire
05-16-2014, 09:24 AM
A press release right this minute wouldn't help, it wouldn't change anything, and it isn't something that should be expected.

For one, CZE may have been aware that this was coming, but for how long have they known the exact details of the filed complaint? About as long as the rest of us, because CZE can't see the future, and they can't know the exact details until complaint is filed. So even if they plan to respond, they need to have their lawyers go over everything with a fine tooth comb.

So we should wait and see what happens rather than stirring up bad feelings all over the place. It isn't being ignored, obviously, so any panicking is premature.

Yoss
05-16-2014, 09:25 AM
I'd like to reiterate what a couple designers at BGG said, and at least one person here has as well. This lawsuit, if it goes through trial and Hasbro wins, could mean bad things for the gaming industry as a whole due to crushed innovation, endless CYA and suit/counter-suit in place of the more innovative and thriving market we have now. Every game builds on the past. As long as the newer makes significant upgrades and does not copy wholesale (like that Tetris knock-off did), that is what should matter. I am not upset with MTG trying to guard its turf; that's what their lawyers are paid for, after all. I just hope that our legal system can see that #HexIsn'tMTG despite the obvious lineage that binds them.

Unfortunately, what should happen sometimes has no bearing on what the US legal system actually does.

IANAL.

bojanglesz
05-16-2014, 09:25 AM
They probably decided to go into closed beta once the lawsuit was inevitable. Gotta get that lawyer fee cash

Perfectblue
05-16-2014, 09:27 AM
ITT: Pointless discussion from armchair lawyers.

Bells
05-16-2014, 09:29 AM
The reason WoTC released a press statement was to try to stop us from paying money for the product. It is smart to try to strangle Hex when it is at its most vulnerable before a serious revenue stream from an open beta starts rolling in.

They want to scare customers away from making an investment in Hex. Time will tell if the strategy worked, but there is at least a chance that they are bringing more people to the game by doing this than they are pushing away.

That already happened. When the most active threads in a forum (which are more likely to be visited by newcomers as they check the forums themselves to learn a bit more on this news) are all about this with sprinkled mentions of ''options of legal action to take'' in case CZE loses and doesn't pay back it's backers, pointless petitions and multiple threads about how a law suit of this kind could be avoided by simply using a different geometrical shape... it is just flat out assumed that this ordeal already costed HEX some money.

All part of the tactic really. WoTC strangles early on, Hex sees it's bottom line dropping immediatly due to it, then WOTC moves in with an offer of settlement that is far more benefitial to their end than that of Hex's. Would you see it going any other way?

''Look, just the mention of our lawsuit tanked your product. We can move forward this legal battle and tank your company under legal fees that could've instead gone into development of your game... or you can slowly bleed yourselves out by paying us Royalties forever, or you can cut your loses by selling yourselves to us and allowing your game to live under our guide.''

mach
05-16-2014, 09:35 AM
I'd like to reiterate what a couple designers at BGG said, and at least one person here has as well. This lawsuit, if it goes through trial and Hasbro wins, could mean bad things for the gaming industry as a whole due to crushed innovation, endless CYA and suit/counter-suit in place of the more innovative and thriving market we have now. Every game builds on the past. As long as the newer makes significant upgrades and does not copy wholesale (like that Tetris knock-off did), that is what should matter. I am not upset with MTG trying to guard its turf; that's what their lawyers are paid for, after all. I just hope that our legal system can see that #HexIsn'tMTG despite the obvious lineage that binds them.

Unfortunately, what should happen sometimes has no bearing on what the US legal system actually does.

IANAL.

But if Hasbro loses, it could also mean bad things for the gaming industry. Why spend money on R&D to create an innovative new game if someone else can just make a clone, change a couple small things, and sell it cheaper (since they don't have R&D expenses)? Win or lose, it could create a bad precedent.

But whoever wins it could also create a good precedent. The industry could get clearer guidance on where the line is between building on other games (good) and just cloning them (bad), no matter on which side of this line Hex ends up being declared to be on.

Dichdude
05-16-2014, 09:36 AM
They haven't requested a preliminary injunction, so if this case goes to trial it could take years.

The problem is not many new players are going to invest in Hex if there is a court cause hanging over their head. It's a win for MtGO and more to the point Duals of the Planeswalkers that comes out next month with 300 card set and this time FULL customisation along with a single player campaign.

But like I say this court case alone could be the end of Hex as no one is going to invest in a game that could be ordered shut it's servers at any time and no bank is going to give them a loan.

Axle
05-16-2014, 09:36 AM
ITT: Pointless discussion from armchair lawyers.

Wow man. You're so smart! You've proven yourself better than so much of us by seeing past the lines and viewing this thread for what it is! How can I try to be as close to what you are?

Orrrr you're just someone who thinks themselves so insignificant that you can't put your own views on things because you believe your opinion is pointless under people with qualifications. Might as well never post PerfectBlue because there will always be someone with better qualifications on everything you say.

Thrawn
05-16-2014, 09:37 AM
That already happened. When the most active threads in a forum (which are more likely to be visited by newcomers as they check the forums themselves to learn a bit more on this news) are all about this with sprinkled mentions of ''options of legal action to take'' in case CZE loses and doesn't pay back it's backers, pointless petitions and multiple threads about how a law suit of this kind could be avoided by simply using a different geometrical shape... it is just flat out assumed that this ordeal already costed HEX some money.

Yep, pretty much every time someone makes a new pointless thread about petitioning, or starting a legal fund, bumps those threads, or anything similarly pointless all they are doing is hurting the game.

Yoss
05-16-2014, 09:43 AM
But if Hasbro loses, it could also mean bad things for the gaming industry. Why spend money on R&D to create an innovative new game if someone else can just make a clone, change a couple small things, and sell it cheaper (since they don't have R&D expenses)? Win or lose, it could create a bad precedent.

But whoever wins it could also create a good precedent. The industry could get clearer guidance on where the line is between building on other games (good) and just cloning them (bad), no matter on which side of this line Hex ends up being declared to be on.

You're right that bad precedent could come out either way, especially in the details of the court's ruling and logic. The best result of any such suit would be "clearer guidance on where the line is between building on other games (good) and just cloning them (bad)" regardless of which side wins in this particular MTG vs Hex suit. However, I believe this specific patent (the MTG patent) is rediculously broad to the point that it offers no guidance whatsoever to tell potential competitors what is and is not safe to pursue for R&D. As such, if the MTG patent is upheld, it would actually make things LESS clear, not moreso. It would say to incumbents, "once you create an innovative product, you can create a moat so broad that no one will be able to compete with you, ever. Not even with a similar product."

IANAL

Bells
05-16-2014, 09:44 AM
But if Hasbro loses, it could also mean bad things for the gaming industry. Why spend money on R&D to create and innovating new game if someone else can just make a clone, change a couple small things, and sell it cheaper (since they don't have R&D expenses)? Win or lose, it could create a bad precedent.

But whoever wins it could also create a good precedent. The industry could get clearer guidance on where the line is between building on other games (good) and just cloning them (bad), no matter on which side of this line Hex ends up being declared to be on.

That's a warped argument without precedent...

If Hasbro loses the message is clear... don't step on smaller companies just because they looked at your concept and created something new with it.

Right now you are saying that Hex is a Clone of MTG with a couple of smaller changes at a cheap price point... that is just absolutely untrue! This is one of the missconceptions that are being bounced around during this whole discussion and it baffles me just how short sighted it is...

MTG has what? 20+ years of development? Hex is in Beta. The game we are playing right now is analog to the version Richard Garfield would show to his close friends for testing... THAT version has similarities to Hex, and even at that level, there are already differences. But even more so than that... the game that was presented a the kickstarter, the one we all backed, the one that is a focal point in the lawsuit, the very same game that was presented to us on the kickstarter page, which was how we were FIRST presented to Hex if VASTLY different from MTG... similar roots, but they are assuredly not the same game. That game, the proposed final version of HEX, the one in development... is not MTG. It's not even MTG Online.

What CZE will be asked to prove is that they are indeed developing the final version of Hex, the one proposed in the Kickstarter page. THAT version must be in development in order to prove that Hex is not a Clone of MTG. If the BETA we are playing today was the whole game or the largest portion of it... you could maybe argue it. But it is not.

Peopel really need to keep that in mind.

Gwaer
05-16-2014, 09:46 AM
Any new player that joins because of the lawsuit will be coming here because of it already anyway. Discussing it doesn't hurt them. It's possible hasbro's lawyers might try to use things that were said here in court, but they've got plenty of stuff they can cherry pick from before the suit was filed. It's ridiculous to the point of incredulity to think that a lawsuit isn't going to be on the top of the forum and on everyone's mind. CZE has nothing to hide. In the history of gaming what they've done is perfectly legal, should a court decision change that, then yes it will be very bad for e gaming industry. A ruling on CZE's side is upholding the status quo which has garnered us every game we've ever played.

mach
05-16-2014, 09:49 AM
You're right that bad precedent could come out either way, especially in the details of the court's ruling and logic. The best result of any such suit would be "clearer guidance on where the line is between building on other games (good) and just cloning them (bad)" regardless of which side wins in this particular MTG vs Hex suit. However, I believe this specific patent (the MTG patent) is rediculously broad to the point that it offers no guidance whatsoever to tell potential competitors what is and is not safe to pursue for R&D. As such, if the MTG patent is upheld, it would actually make things LESS clear, not moreso. It would say to incumbents, "once you create an innovative product, you can create a moat so broad that no one will be able to compete with you, ever. Not even with a similar product."

IANAL

Any precedent set with regards to the patent claim will be less significant because the patent will expire, after which it won't matter if it's overbroad or not.

Precedents set with regards to the copyright/trade dress claims will be what's really consequential for the industry, for good or for bad.

Xexist
05-16-2014, 09:50 AM
That's a warped argument without precedent...
... wall of text (which I agreed with).

Good post I think Bells. This could go against Hex, but only because the legal system is so poor it is hard to have faith in it. Hex deserves to win this. Hex and MTG is like cats and dogs. Sure we both have 4 legs, claws, a tail, 2 eyes a snout and fur and whiskers, but we are most decidedly NOT even close to the same. (Especially the game MOST of us backed for.. the PVE)

Yoss
05-16-2014, 09:51 AM
Bells, taking an existing patented product and expanding it means needed to pay royalties to the patent holder for the rights to do so. If Hex uses systems whose patents are owned by others (I'm not saying Hex does), then Hex, despite all the amazing innovation placed on top of those systems, needs to pay royalties to the respective owners of those systems.

If I invented the ball bearing, and you created a roller skate while my patent was active, you would owe me royalties. Is a rollerskate significantly different than a ball bearing? Absolutely, but that's not relevant. Does a rollerskate use ball bearings? Yes, and that is what matters.

IANAL

Gwaer
05-16-2014, 09:53 AM
Hex absolutely falls under hasbro's patent. But so does virtually every other card game. It's ridiculously broad. Which is why they've never used it successfully. Likely they realize it's about to expire and are just seeing if they make it stick.

Barborin
05-16-2014, 09:55 AM
On whether or not CZE or WoTC is going to win, I have no idea. I am mostly curious how community behavior is going to be effected. For me, even if I think CZE is going to lose, I will probably still continue to draft and buy platinum. The cost involved is less than what it takes me to see a movie, and time it takes is potentially longer.

What about everyone else?

Marsden
05-16-2014, 09:58 AM
On whether or not CZE or WoTC is going to win, I have no idea. I am mostly curious how community behavior is going to be effected. For me, even if I think CZE is going to lose, I will probably still continue to draft and buy platinum. The cost involved is less than what it takes me to see a movie, and time it takes is potentially longer.

What about everyone else?

Absolutely. I still have free draft tickets, but as soon as they're gone I'll be buying plat. I've got a lot of packs to open through drafting.

Bells
05-16-2014, 10:00 AM
Any new player that joins because of the lawsuit will be coming here because of it already anyway. Discussing it doesn't hurt them. It's possible hasbro's lawyers might try to use things that were said here in court, but they've got plenty of stuff they can cherry pick from before the suit was filed. It's ridiculous to the point of incredulity to think that a lawsuit isn't going to be on the top of the forum and on everyone's mind. CZE has nothing to hide. In the history of gaming what they've done is perfectly legal, should a court decision change that, then yes it will be very bad for e gaming industry. A ruling on CZE's side is upholding the status quo which has garnered us every game we've ever played.

It is not a matter of hiding, it is a matter of image. This is not about pride or honor, is about the proven fact that online games live and die by how the market and the community around them perceive the game and it's community. There is ZERO need to hide, lie, deceive or fabricate anything... but You have to pay attention on how you present yourself if you want newcomers to actually understand the context of things and not have the game branded at a superficial level.

As i said before, Self-Inflicted injuries are not smart.



Good post I think Bells. This could go against Hex, but only because the legal system is so poor it is hard to have faith in it. Hex deserves to win this. Hex and MTG is like cats and dogs. Sure we both have 4 legs, claws, a tail, 2 eyes a snout and fur and whiskers, but we are most decidedly NOT even close to the same. (Especially the game MOST of us backed for.. the PVE)

Also worth of note the fact that both HEX and MTG can totally coexist in the same environment.


Bells, taking an existing patented product and expanding it means needed to pay royalties to the patent holder for the rights to do so. If Hex uses systems whose patents are owned by others (I'm not saying Hex does), then Hex, despite all the amazing innovation placed on top of those systems, needs to pay royalties to the respective owners of those systems.

If I invented the ball bearing, and you created a roller skate while my patent was active, you would owe me royalties. Is a rollerskate significantly different than a ball bearing? Absolutely, but that's not relevant. Does a rollerskate use ball bearings? Yes, and that is what matters.

IANAL

This is the problem of a 600+ posts Thread... the entire ''patent holder'' argument was already discussed, and it just doesn't apply like that to this case. Hex is not MTG with a bunch of addons and house rules... it's a differente experience, and a difference game.

Let's translate this into TCG lingo we can actually discuss... can i take the Meta from HEX and shove it in MTG?

Xexist
05-16-2014, 10:02 AM
Absolutely. I still have free draft tickets, but as soon as they're gone I'll be buying plat. I've got a lot of packs to open through drafting.

Ive drafted almost 30 times now. F my life this could be an expensive habit.

GatticusFinch
05-16-2014, 10:05 AM
Hex absolutely falls under hasbro's patent. But so does virtually every other card game. It's ridiculously broad. Which is why they've never used it successfully. Likely they realize it's about to expire and are just seeing if they make it stick.

They have, actually. They have coaxed settlements and licensing agreements out of multiple products. They've even been sued before by people trying to invalidate the patent.

Gwaer
05-16-2014, 10:07 AM
This is a pretty much open forum. You're asking that every single person who has trolled the forum in the past, and every single mtg player who wants to come stick it to the "clone" according to mtg's necessarily biased court filing not to make CZE look bad, it's not going to happen. Better a full discussion of all sides than intermittent insults by outsiders that can just as easily be scraped and used at the "the opinion of CZE's own users".

Gwaer
05-16-2014, 10:09 AM
They have, actually. They have coaxed settlements and licensing agreements out of multiple products. They've even been sued before by people trying to invalidate the patent.

Can you link me to a case that upheld this patent on its merits? I did preliminary searching for an example and turned up nothing.

EntropyBall
05-16-2014, 10:10 AM
They have, actually. They have coaxed settlements and licensing agreements out of multiple products. They've even been sued before by people trying to invalidate the patent.

Someone made an interesting point about the tapping patent in the boardgamegeek thread. In a digital game, why even turn the card sideways? You have sooo many more options of ways to show its been used. I guess the turn-sideways thing maintains familiarity for people converting from physical to digital?

Quasari
05-16-2014, 10:11 AM
Someone made an interesting point about the tapping patent in the boardgamegeek thread. In a digital game, why even turn the card sideways? You have sooo many more options of ways to show its been used. I guess the turn-sideways thing maintains familiarity for people converting from physical to digital?
The patent also talks about designating cards, so it can still be covered in the patent.

Zaxian
05-16-2014, 10:12 AM
On whether or not CZE or WoTC is going to win, I have no idea. I am mostly curious how community behavior is going to be effected. For me, even if I think CZE is going to lose, I will probably still continue to draft and buy platinum. The cost involved is less than what it takes me to see a movie, and time it takes is potentially longer.

What about everyone else?

Well I'm still waiting on swiss drafts - when they do come out, I'll be playing :D pending lawsuit or no.

EntropyBall
05-16-2014, 10:13 AM
Absolutely. I still have free draft tickets, but as soon as they're gone I'll be buying plat. I've got a lot of packs to open through drafting.

I've already bought plat, and I'll use it up drafting, and then I'll buy some more to keep drafting. Even if my entire collection gets wiped out, the fun I get out of the drafts are worth the entry fee to me.

Gwaer
05-16-2014, 10:13 AM
As shown in FIG. 1G, the island card 40 has the name 24 "island," and the text 16 in the text box 30 indicates the card provides one blue mana or energy for the player to utilize with spell cards. The symbol ofthe "T" tipping on its side in the text 16 is the tap symbol 38 indicating the card must be "tapped" when the mana from the card is used in play. "Tapping" is an act of flagging the card to indicate to all players that the energy provided by the card is being used and is no longer available. This can be accomplished in various ways, including placing an object on the card, turning the card over or, more preferably, rotating the card counterclockwise approximately 90 degrees on the playing surface from an original orientation or position. Similarly, "untapping" means rotating the card 90 degrees in a clockwise direction to the original orientation or removing theflag symbol.

This is their relevant patent on tapping, notice how it covers anything that marks the card as used, and really doesn't depend on turning a card at all.

ThrawnOmega
05-16-2014, 10:26 AM
I'd love to see a troop in Set 2 or later called "Wizard of the Coast," or just "Coastal Wizard." Put some flavor text or an effect referential to the suit after it's over. Cause, in this case, I would totally support Hex with a little creative corporate trolling.

Vorpal
05-16-2014, 10:28 AM
The patent also talks about designating cards, so it can still be covered in the patent.

Who knew you could patent the action of pointing at cards?

Yoss
05-16-2014, 10:32 AM
Any precedent set with regards to the patent claim will be less significant because the patent will expire, after which it won't matter if it's overbroad or not.

Precedents set with regards to the copyright/trade dress claims will be what's really consequential for the industry, for good or for bad.

To me, the patent issue is the one with most potential merit in the MTG case, mostly because the US patent system is messed up.

The trade dress of Hex is obviously different than MTG; no sane person could ever accidentally purchase Hex when intending to buy MTG or vice versa. Putting Hex, a video game, up next to the paper game is obviously not a conflict. Hex next to MTGO is also very different. Only DOTP has even passing similarity to the Hex UI, and even then one can see they are not the same beyond the obvious functional similarities that are "scenes that must be done" as the saying goes. I suppose Hex could make its case stronger if it added a big "HEX" watermark built into the "playmat", but I don't think it is necessary.

The copyright issue should also be possible to dodge, unless the court is looking to move even farther than the Tetris v Mino and Triple Town v Yeti Town decisions. Hex is clearly not a blatant re-skin of MTG the way Mino was of Tetris. If you showed me Mino, I would have told you it was Tetris because it is identical in every way that matters. Meanwhile, I can look at Hex and know that it is not MTG. There are no Lands in play, there is different symbology on the board and on the cards, individual card layout is different, and so on. Hex is also not a copy of MTG the way Yeti was of Triple. Yeti's mechanics were completely identical in every detail with nothing but graphical changes and some minor cosmetic additions. Hex's resource system, socketed cards, permanent modifications, card memory of master/pet relationships, inability to respond to certain triggers, and so on are clearly different than the MTG system, giving Hex a different "total concept and feel" than MTG. Furthermore, I can't help thinking that Triple v Yeti was swayed by the bad acting of 6Waves in having beta access to Triple and then turning around to dump a mechanically identical game onto the market only a few months later. There's also the naming. Where Yeti and Triple both use "Town" in their names, Hex and MTG have no words in common. The only commonality is perhaps the "<name>: <subname>" structure, but enforcing something so basic seems a stretch since "<name>: <subname>" is a structure used plenty of other places and is just a basic linguistic construct.

The patent is where lies the rub, possibly. If the MTG patent were written properly, tightly describing exactly what the MTG inventions are, then maybe (don't know because this isn't the case) Hex would be in trouble. However, the MTG patent doesn't do that. Rather, it describes this incredibly vague thing that is recognizable as a game, but not really as any particular game. The patent seeks to define and claim an entire genre of game, plus a moat around that definition, which should not be allowed. As such, I personally see the patent as garbage, but the court might not. If the massively broad patent is allowed to stand, it is bad precedent, in my opinion. Saying that the patent expires soon makes it less important is short sighted. It is only less important to Hex. To the industry as a whole, every precedent matters forever.

IANAL

bizznach
05-16-2014, 10:35 AM
Every single backer of Hex needs to write an email to the following address: Hasbrobrandpr@hasbro.com

Let them know that this is a dick move and that we will boycott all Hasbro and WotC products if this suit isn't withdrawn. I know it's not really enough people to sway them, but if we get some publicity it could at least make them notice.

ive seen it plenty of time...up here in canada(Manitoba) a small bike shop got the attention of a big bike company over their name.
out came the lawyers...
and the big bad business got SPANKED and looked like fools and made the small bike shop tons of money.
ppl ordered their jerseys and parts from them WORLD WIDE.
this is the internet age.
BULLYING IS BAD!
we should just run with it!

maniza
05-16-2014, 10:46 AM
The patent is where lies the rub, possibly. If the MTG patent were written properly, tightly describing exactly what the MTG inventions are, then maybe (don't know because this isn't the case) Hex would be in trouble. However, the MTG patent doesn't do that. Rather, it describes this incredibly vague thing that is recognizable as a game, but not really as any particular game. The patent seeks to define and claim an entire genre of game, plus a moat around that definition, which should not be allowed. As such, I personally see the patent as garbage, but the court might not. If the massively broad patent is allowed to stand, it is bad precedent, in my opinion. Saying that the patent expires soon makes it less important is short sighted. It is only less important to Hex. To the industry as a whole, every precedent matters forever.

IANAL

i wonder how do you aplay a patent from a phisical game to a digital game. i mean its not like you are actualy "tapping" cards in hex. its just a digital representation.

GatticusFinch
05-16-2014, 10:46 AM
Can you link me to a case that upheld this patent on its merits? I did preliminary searching for an example and turned up nothing.

None of them have ever gotten that far. The fact they can coax license agreements out of people is pretty good evidence that the patent has some strength. Certainly Nintendo could have gone toe to toe with them to try to invalidate the patent and it probably would have been worth their while given Pokemon's success, but never did.

I'm not certain Hex can afford a fight all the way to patent invalidation.

maniza
05-16-2014, 10:52 AM
None of them have ever gotten that far. The fact they can coax license agreements out of people is pretty good evidence that the patent has some strength. Certainly Nintendo could have gone toe to toe with them to try to invalidate the patent and it probably would have been worth their while given Pokemon's success, but never did.

I'm not certain Hex can afford a fight all the way to patent invalidation.

you are asuming way to much with no knowledge of what happened in that case. i could asume that nintendo decided that the legal fight would cost them more than what they would en up paying wotc and then decided to settle. baseless asumptions certainly are not helping the comunity at all.

Yoss
05-16-2014, 10:54 AM
you are asuming way to much with no knowledge of what happened in that case. i could asume that nintendo decided that the legal fight would cost them more than what they would en up paying wotc and then decided to settle. baseless asumptions certainly are not helping the comunity at all.

It's not baseless. It might be slightly off in the particulars, but the fact that people have settled with MTG tells you something. It means those other parties had more to lose by fighting than by settling. The rest is speculation though, as you rightly point out.

IndigoShade
05-16-2014, 10:57 AM
i wonder how do you aplay a patent from a phisical game to a digital game. i mean its not like you are actualy "tapping" cards in hex. its just a digital representation.

Their patent is so vague that any form of representing that a card has been depleted and unavailable for use is considered tapping. It doesn't have to be turning the card side ways or putting a coin/stone on top of the card.

Like I said in another thread, HEX should probably differentiate itself more from M:tG in visual ways that don't affect the core gameplay, even if it means removing some of the things that people traditionally relate to a physical card game. It might not matter as far as WotC's patent for "tapping" goes, with their broad definition encompassing even something such as the card fading to black & white once used. Anything that would bolster their case as far as showing that when someone sits down to play HEX, they know they aren't playing M:tG, might be a good move though.

Tinuvas
05-16-2014, 10:59 AM
A point that was brought up a few (15?...20?) pages ago by GatticusFinch that's stuck in my head. The whole tapping comment 'If it's not broke don't fix it". GatticusFinch mentioned that the comment by Crypto was significant and negative in a legal way. I wonder if there are any other games out there that use a marking mechanism (be it turning to the side or whatever...just something that would fall under the patent as it stands now) that don't pay a fee to WoTC that could be used as an example of not being broke. If there are, any one of them could be pointed at by CZE couldn't they?

Turtlewing
05-16-2014, 11:03 AM
i wonder how do you aplay a patent from a phisical game to a digital game. i mean its not like you are actualy "tapping" cards in hex. its just a digital representation.

Because no one has patented the "on a computer"/"on the Internet" version yet (and if they try now Wizards will get it invalidated because of Magic Online)

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 11:04 AM
The problem is not many new players are going to invest in Hex if there is a court cause hanging over their head. It's a win for MtGO and more to the point Duals of the Planeswalkers that comes out next month with 300 card set and this time FULL customisation along with a single player campaign.

But like I say this court case alone could be the end of Hex as no one is going to invest in a game that could be ordered shut it's servers at any time and no bank is going to give them a loan.

They've already got their investors, and as of last night have already ran about 2000 drafts in the span of a week. There's plenty of interest and people "investing" in the game. I know there's a perception of Hex being shut down, but the actual chances of that happening are slim at best. The game will be around. Everyone take a step back from the ledge.

maniza
05-16-2014, 11:08 AM
since the patent seems to be the major problem here, would that problem disapear once it expires witch is like in two months? i mean hex is not released yet. and if the beta is the problem they cant shut it down until the patent expires? i mean how does the law applys to a game in development where almost everything is subject to change?

ossuary
05-16-2014, 11:09 AM
It's not baseless. It might be slightly off in the particulars, but the fact that people have settled with MTG tells you something. It means those other parties had more to lose by fighting than by settling. The rest is speculation though, as you rightly point out.

No, not quite. It means that they had less to lose by settling than by fighting. You can be COMPLETELY in the right, but still decide to settle just because it costs you less to pay out than it does to fight to prove to the court that you are, indeed, right. It could be a totally airtight case, and it could still end up costing less to settle than to drag things out in the legal system.

That's why patent trolls exist in the first place. They don't want to win court cases - they want to scare, bully, intimidate, or inconvenience people into coughing up money just to go away. There's a reason Hasbro is suing Cryptozoic and not Blizzard - Blizzard can afford to fight, and probably would. Maybe, they figure, CZE can't (or won't).

Hibbert
05-16-2014, 11:11 AM
None of them have ever gotten that far. The fact they can coax license agreements out of people is pretty good evidence that the patent has some strength. Certainly Nintendo could have gone toe to toe with them to try to invalidate the patent and it probably would have been worth their while given Pokemon's success, but never did.

I'm not certain Hex can afford a fight all the way to patent invalidation.

I'm really curious exactly how many companies pay WotC for licensing the patent. Did CZE pay any sort of licensing to WotC on WoWTCG(which very obviously infringed on the "tapping" and collectible distribution aspects of the patent)? Do all the smaller board game companies that have some sort of "tapping" on any of their cards or game pieces pay? I also wonder how many games have been quietly shut down by legal threats.

I guess there will never be clear official reports of these sorts of things.

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 11:12 AM
It's not baseless. It might be slightly off in the particulars, but the fact that people have settled with MTG tells you something. It means those other parties had more to lose by fighting than by settling. The rest is speculation though, as you rightly point out.

That "settlement" could be anything.

Yoss
05-16-2014, 11:14 AM
A point that was brought up a few (15?...20?) pages ago by GatticusFinch that's stuck in my head. The whole tapping comment 'If it's not broke don't fix it". GatticusFinch mentioned that the comment by Crypto was significant and negative in a legal way. I wonder if there are any other games out there that use a marking mechanism (be it turning to the side or whatever...just something that would fall under the patent as it stands now) that don't pay a fee to WoTC that could be used as an example of not being broke. If there are, any one of them could be pointed at by CZE couldn't they?

Patents, unlike trademarks, are selectively enforceable. They can ignore everyone's infringement except yours. It sound rediculous, but it's true. Hasbro can pick on Hex simply because they don't like how good Cory looks dressed in drag. They have no obligation to go after anyone else.

IANAL

Yoss
05-16-2014, 11:18 AM
That "settlement" could be anything.

Exactly. It could even have been (in the Nintendo case) that Nin just gave Hasbro the middle finger and Hasbro accepted. (Not likely, but hey, you never know since it isn't public.)

ossuary
05-16-2014, 11:21 AM
They settled for a picture of Link with his hat off.

maniza
05-16-2014, 11:25 AM
Patents, unlike trademarks, are selectively enforceable. They can ignore everyone's infringement except yours. It sound rediculous, but it's true. Hasbro can pick on Hex simply because they don't like how good Cory looks dressed in drag. They have no obligation to go after anyone else.

IANAL

is what is aproved in the patent final or can you argue against it? because it seems so stupid to me that you can actualy patent "tapping".

GatticusFinch
05-16-2014, 11:28 AM
There's a reason Hasbro is suing Cryptozoic and not Blizzard - Blizzard can afford to fight, and probably would. Maybe, they figure, CZE can't (or won't).

Ok, time for some real talk.

Let's stop kidding ourselves. The reason they are suing CZE and not Blizzard is because Magic and Hex are very similar. Magic and Hearthstone are not anywhere close to the similarities between Hex and Magic. For fucks sake, Hex has cards with the exact same name as Magic cards, with almost identical card text. Firststrike and swiftstrike? Instant and quick action? Hell, WotC's complaint has links to forums posts from during the kickstarter where almost everyone is acknowledging it. CZE has tacitly acknowledged it.

Hex cloned parts of Magic. The question is if the law allows them to do or whether they went too far. This isn't a troll suit, WotC has raised legitimate legal complaints, and we've got to see how it plays out in court or see if it settles.

Yoss
05-16-2014, 11:30 AM
is what is aproved in the patent final or can you argue against it? because it seems so stupid to me that you can actualy patent "tapping".

Patents are weird things. I looked into patenting one of my game designs and so far haven't botherd because of how dumb the system is. Basically, you can patent almost anything. It costs money (something on the order of $10k in my case). However, the patent really doesn't mean much until it is upheld in court, so that money may or may not have been completely wasted. Upholding it in court takes a fortune in time and money, on top of the money and time you already spent to get it filed and approved. So you never really know if your patent is any good. The MTG patent is a perfect example. No one has ever taken it through to a completed trial; they always settle, and the details are never made public. We have no idea if the patent is valid or not, though it would appear to be valid enough to get settlements out of people.

IANAL

J-PunchTicket
05-16-2014, 11:31 AM
Ha$bro need to back off. There should be protest and we email Rage Against The Machine and Michael Moore and news men and make camp outside Ha$bro factories and castle.

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 11:32 AM
Ha$bro need to back off. There should be protest and we email Rage Against The Machine and Michael Moore and news men and make camp outside Ha$bro factories and castle.

We'll meet you there.

Gwaer
05-16-2014, 11:33 AM
It is a troll suit from a gaming industry standpoint. Like it or not, this kind games building very heavily on concepts from previous games, in many ways having the exact same foundation with a different feel being the norm.

It really isn't as big of a deal as you're trying to make it. This patent has never hit court because of expedience, it will fall apart there if it makes it that far. The trade dress is a non-issue. That leaves an extremely out of line copyright judgement.

QuantumZeruul
05-16-2014, 11:38 AM
Maybe CZE can start selling T-Shirts on their website for some extra funds. "We got Sued by Hasborg and all they got was the profits from this stupid T-shirt" :D

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 11:39 AM
Ok, time for some real talk.

Let's stop kidding ourselves. The reason they are suing CZE and not Blizzard is because Magic and Hex are very similar. Magic and Hearthstone are not anywhere close to the similarities between Hex and Magic. For fucks sake, Hex has cards with the exact same name as Magic cards, with almost identical card text. Firststrike and swiftstrike? Instant and quick action? Hell, WotC's complaint has links to forums posts from during the kickstarter where almost everyone is acknowledging it. CZE has tacitly acknowledged it.

Hex cloned parts of Magic. The question is if the law allows them to do or whether they went too far. This isn't a troll suit, WotC has raised legitimate legal complaints, and we've got to see how it plays out in court or see if it settles.

My educated guess after studying this for a day or so (so it's worth less than the bandwidth it took to type this) is that this case settles and HEX agrees to some sort of royalty or licensure system so that it can operate in its current state. It either pays a one-time settlement fee (moderate in size) or agrees to kick WotC a small portion of quarterly profits in order to avoid a trial in which it is possibly shut down forever. WotC takes this relatively small settlement rather than go to trial and get stonewalled by a jury that thinks it's trying to bully and stifle creativity. Wotc Drastically revamps its business approach and realizes it's not 2003 anymore. We all rock along, HEX does well, WotC does extremely well (as always) and we all sing Kumbaya.

GatticusFinch
05-16-2014, 11:43 AM
It is a troll suit from a gaming industry standpoint. Like it or not, this kind games building very heavily on concepts from previous games, in many ways having the exact same foundation with a different feel being the norm.

It really isn't as big of a deal as you're trying to make it. This patent has never hit court because of expedience, it will fall apart there if it makes it that far. The trade dress is a non-issue. That leaves an extremely out of line copyright judgement.

You are completely and totally talking out of your ass. I don't know why I bother answering questions just to get graduates of the Wikipedia School of Law telling me I am wrong.

You might not like it, but it's not a troll suit, at all. Not even close. CZE should have seen this coming from day one.

J-PunchTicket
05-16-2014, 11:44 AM
Ok, time for some real talk.

For fucks sake, Hex has cards with the exact same name as Magic cards, with almost identical card text.

The system is screwy though man - nobody OWNS words. God made them.

Thanks Obama

Gwaer
05-16-2014, 11:45 AM
It's pretty obvious you're not a patent or copyright attorney. Your description of the trade dress issue was completely misleading. I don't know if you're an actual lawyer, if you are your focus is in a field far removed from the concepts going on here. Which is fine, but pretending you're an expert isn't helping anyone.

CoS
05-16-2014, 11:49 AM
Copyright =/= trademark or trade dress =/= patent.

What you feel =/= 200+ years of intellectual property jurisprudence.

As another attorney on this forum I agree with this message.

bojanglesz
05-16-2014, 11:50 AM
It's pretty obvious you're not a patent or copyright attorney. Your description of the trade dress issue was completely misleading. I don't know if you're an actual lawyer, if you are your focus is in a field far removed from the concepts going on here. Which is fine, but pretending you're an expert isn't helping anyone.

Are you a lawyer? Even if he's not a copyright or patent lawyer I take his word over some dude looking at Wikipedia and googling court cases.

Yoss
05-16-2014, 11:51 AM
My educated guess after studying this for a day or so (so it's worth less than the bandwidth it took to type this) is that this case settles and HEX agrees to some sort of royalty or licensure system so that it can operate in its current state. It either pays a one-time settlement fee (moderate in size) or agrees to kick WotC a small portion of quarterly profits in order to avoid a trial in which it is possibly shut down forever. WotC takes this relatively small settlement rather than go to trial and get stonewalled by a jury that thinks it's trying to bully and stifle creativity. Wotc Drastically revamps its business approach and realizes it's not 2003 anymore. We all rock along, HEX does well, WotC does extremely well (as always) and we all sing Kumbaya.

That would be entirely too reasonable. It will never happen. :p

maniza
05-16-2014, 11:51 AM
if the main objective of a troll suit is to make some money then i dont see that is the case here. i think they are thinking like greedy bastards they view hex as competition and they want it out of the way before it becomes a bigger problem. now their law suit seems realy stupid to me, and most likely to people who are familiar whit how the game industry works. but the fact remains that the person judging this might see it diferently only time will tell.

Vomitlord
05-16-2014, 12:16 PM
short honest answer, We'll all probably go and play mtgo. hopefully it won't come to that though.

Miyordon
05-16-2014, 12:18 PM
short honest answer, We'll all probably go and play mtgo. hopefully it won't come to that though.

Speak for yourself. Many of us are here for things that Magic may never provide. If hex were not around, I would just continue doing WoW TCG raids with my friends on a monthly basis and wish that a digital version would come out.

Yoss
05-16-2014, 12:24 PM
short honest answer, We'll all probably go and play mtgo. hopefully it won't come to that though.

Speak for yourself only, please. I'd never played MTGO before Hex, and I won't be going there in the future, even if Hex dies. I own MTG paper cards, and will continue to play with them. I may or may not ever buy any more MTG cards to supplement what I already have, but this lawsuit makes me less inclined to do so. I already cancelled the $100 order I was getting ready to make at TCGplayer.com for some new MTG cards.

Kilo24
05-16-2014, 12:30 PM
Personally, I have never spent money on anything MTG related outside of MTG: Tactics - I simply didn't believe that it was worth the price that I would end up paying. But I spent $740 on the Hex Kickstarter because I believed Hex would be different. Regardless of whether or not Hex continues (and it almost certainly will even if they lose), my evaluation of MTG and its related releases is going to remain consistent.

mach
05-16-2014, 12:30 PM
That's why patent trolls exist in the first place. They don't want to win court cases - they want to scare, bully, intimidate, or inconvenience people into coughing up money just to go away. There's a reason Hasbro is suing Cryptozoic and not Blizzard - Blizzard can afford to fight, and probably would. Maybe, they figure, CZE can't (or won't).

There are many TCG companies out there other than WoTC, Blizzard, and CZE. Many of them are surely even smaller/less able to afford a legal fight than CZE. Yet Hasbro is not suing them. So your theory doesn't hold water.

hammer
05-16-2014, 12:30 PM
short honest answer, We'll all probably go and play mtgo. hopefully it won't come to that though.

I am never playing mtgo again and this decision was taken before the HEX kickstarter, I almost reversed this decision seeing Vintage Masters, but this suit has squashed my interest in ever supporting WOTC / Hasbro again.

Xexist
05-16-2014, 12:31 PM
Speak for yourself only, please. I'd never played MTGO before Hex, and I won't be going there in the future, even if Hex dies. I own MTG paper cards, and will continue to play with them. I may or may not ever buy any more MTG cards to supplement what I already have, but this lawsuit makes me less inclined to do so. I already cancelled the $100 order I was getting ready to make at TCGplayer.com for some new MTG cards.

This is how I feel as well. Im not going to burn the cards I already own in protest, but I wont be adding to my collection. In my case I wouldnt have even if Hex never came along. Probably not anyways. Howeer now Hasbro is on my personal boycot list

Yoss
05-16-2014, 12:38 PM
Speak for yourself only, please. I'd never played MTGO before Hex, and I won't be going there in the future, even if Hex dies. I own MTG paper cards, and will continue to play with them. I may or may not ever buy any more MTG cards to supplement what I already have, but this lawsuit makes me less inclined to do so. I already cancelled the $100 order I was getting ready to make at TCGplayer.com for some new MTG cards.

To further this a bit. Hex, to me, is a video game, not a (paper-ish) card game. It fills a differnt niche in my entertainment portfolio than paper games, which is where my MTG collection lives. I play and design paper games (board games, card games, etc). I also play video games. If I can't have Hex, then I'll go play Shandalar, or Sid Meyer's Alpha Centauri, or Starcraft II (hope the 3rd one is out soon), or any number of other games out there that might catch my fancy. MTGO isn't likely to be on that list; I play MTG in person, only in person, and only "at the kitchen table".

Hieronymous
05-16-2014, 12:48 PM
There are many TCG companies out there other than WoTC, Blizzard, and CZE. Many of them are surely even smaller/less able to afford a legal fight than CZE. Yet Hasbro is not suing them. So your theory doesn't hold water.

None of those smaller companies represent a threat to MTG's bottom line the way that Hex and Hearthstone do.

Hex is a small company with a big product, a.k.a., a perfect target.

Hibbert
05-16-2014, 01:06 PM
There are many TCG companies out there other than WoTC, Blizzard, and CZE. Many of them are surely even smaller/less able to afford a legal fight than CZE. Yet Hasbro is not suing them. So your theory doesn't hold water.

The thing is, we don't know if those companies might be paying a licensing fee to WotC for the patent. For all we know, maybe even CZE was paying a licensing fee to WotC for WoWTCG or any of their other games that might use bits of the patent.

AswanJaguar
05-16-2014, 01:09 PM
I found an interesting link in the HexTCG subreddit thread. Hasbro sued RJ Softwares who made the game Scrabulous. It was a straight up clone of Scrabble, had its own website in 2005 and launched on Facebook in 2007. Here's a blog (http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2008/08/thoughts-on-the.html)that lists the suit filed in July 2008. Scrabulous was taken off of Facebook when the suit was filed. The suit was dropped in December 2008. Scrabulous later changed its point system and design and relaunched as Wordscraper on Facebook and Lexulous on its own website.

Hard to say what led to the suit being dropped, but given that Hex's similarity to Magic is nowhere near Scrabulous's similarity to Scrabble, it bodes well for CZE.

J-PunchTicket
05-16-2014, 01:10 PM
short honest answer, We'll all probably go and play mtgo. hopefully it won't come to that though.

My inner neckbeard can understand when the itch comes in there'll be people reconsidering in time and ending up back on MGTO but while Hex is still here lets hope Ha$bro get nowhere in court and the police close them down for persecuting minorities.

Hatts
05-16-2014, 01:14 PM
Hard to say what led to the suit being dropped, but given that Hex's similarity to Magic is nowhere near Scrabulous's similarity to Scrabble, it bodes well for CZE.

But Hasbro does not own any patents on Scrabble...

Daparish81
05-16-2014, 01:18 PM
But Hasbro does not own any patents on Scrabble...

Well, it's patents for Magic are a bit dubious.

AswanJaguar
05-16-2014, 01:31 PM
But Hasbro does not own any patents on Scrabble...

Patents are only one part of the suit against Hex. This is more aimed at the copyright and trademark portion of the suit.

Leingod
05-16-2014, 01:38 PM
There are many TCG companies out there other than WoTC, Blizzard, and CZE. Many of them are surely even smaller/less able to afford a legal fight than CZE. Yet Hasbro is not suing them. So your theory doesn't hold water.

To be fair, it would be very hard to consider any physical TCG a threat for WOTC. However, their online client has languished thanks to basically no similarly strategic competition. (Just about everything digital is more simplistic CCG like Hearthstone or Solforge.) This is likely the main reason behind the lawsuit. Hex provides an alternative to a digital client that WOTC only wants to put the bare minimum of effort into.

I'm fairly interested to see how this turns out since I doubt WOTC is going to settle for anything besides a complete stopping of Hex in anything resembling its current form. So we may actually see a fight rather than a settlement, though this will still likely be bad for HEX since WOTC can throw money at it until they bankrupt Hex's funds. Kind of a shame that capitalism ends up being more about stopping competition than being better than your competition but that's how it goes.

ossuary
05-16-2014, 01:54 PM
There are many TCG companies out there other than WoTC, Blizzard, and CZE. Many of them are surely even smaller/less able to afford a legal fight than CZE. Yet Hasbro is not suing them. So your theory doesn't hold water.

Too small to be a threat, not enough money to be worth trying to take. Thanks for playing, though. :p

Yoss
05-16-2014, 02:01 PM
I found an interesting link in the HexTCG subreddit thread. Hasbro sued RJ Softwares who made the game Scrabulous. It was a straight up clone of Scrabble, had its own website in 2005 and launched on Facebook in 2007. Here's a blog (http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2008/08/thoughts-on-the.html)that lists the suit filed in July 2008. Scrabulous was taken off of Facebook when the suit was filed. The suit was dropped in December 2008. Scrabulous later changed its point system and design and relaunched as Wordscraper on Facebook and Lexulous on its own website.

Hard to say what led to the suit being dropped, but given that Hex's similarity to Magic is nowhere near Scrabulous's similarity to Scrabble, it bodes well for CZE.

Here's the full suite of links, I especially like part IV:
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2008/08/thoughts-on-the.html
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2008/08/thoughts-on-t-1.html
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2008/08/thoughts-on-t-2.html
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2008/08/thoughts-on-t-3.html

Ertzi
05-16-2014, 02:11 PM
Jesus, that was a long read. I used two days' worth of free time and read every single post on this thread.

I for one can say that I am panicking a bit. At the very least I am very worried. I have absolutely no legal knowledge whatsoever, and it fills me with dread that the people who actually have studied law see WotC's suit as a legitimate and serious threat (I am also pretty impressed with the number of lawyers and future lawyers in HEX's corner - we have pretty smart people here). I can say that this has definitely already affected me and my behavior. For starters, I planned to draft all evening today, but I was somehow paralyzed by this whole situation and I just didn't have the heart for it just now. I have plenty of packs left and I am sitting on 10 000 plat, and I will definitely use those up, but I will not spend a dime more until I feel a bit more safe that HEX will be around.

On the other hand, if Cory comes out and promises to never ever sell HEX to Hasbro or its evil minion subsidiaries and asks for monetary help to fight this case, I will instantly donate more money for the cause. I will do anything to keep HEX around. And I mean as is. I don't want to make any concessions to WotC and the entire idea of even having to pay them royalties or licensing fees pisses me the fuck off. I want HEX to be its own entity, completely free of leeches, so all the profits go straight to Cryptozoic.

I had no qualms about keeping around a hefty Magic collection and playing from time to time, maybe even buying new packs and boxes, but now I loathe the whole game. Can't help it. This was a bully move, and I fucking hate bullies. I swear by all that I hold dear and holy, if Hasbro kills HEX, I will never buy another Magic card again and will sell my entire collection. I'm also glad I didn't go see Transformers 3 in theaters, nor will I see number 4 (too late for the first two, sadly). I am a person of principle, and these bastards are messing with my dream game now.

I am extremely angry and frustrated right now. For once in my life, along comes a game that makes me want to dedicate all my gaming time to a single game. I honestly am not even interested in any other game right now. I can't emphasize enough how rare that is. Usually I play around 10 - 15 games at the same time. And now its entire existence is threatened by a greedy, gigantic corporation. Shame on you, Hasbro. Shame on you.

I'm a movie guy, so I have to end with a fitting scene. Tread softly, Hasbro...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YANfepie7AA

nicosharp
05-16-2014, 02:29 PM
I can say that this has definitely already affected me and my behavior. For starters, I planned to draft all evening today, but I was somehow paralyzed by this whole situation and I just didn't have the heart for it just now. I have plenty of packs left and I am sitting on 10 000 plat, and I will definitely use those up, but I will not spend a dime more until I feel a bit more safe that HEX will be around.

Don't let a scare tactic do what it is intended to do. People like Hex. It is better than Magic, and it is a Tribute to Magic and many other card games. It is not Magic. For everything you can say begs and borrows from Magic, you can point out at least one innovation. Even if they win a legal battle, I have faith that we will not see this product go belly up. It may get revitalized, but it will not disappear. Spend your money on drafts as intended. I need someone to play tonight!

Xexist
05-16-2014, 02:32 PM
Don't let a scare tactic do what it is intended to do. People like Hex. It is better than Magic, and it is a Tribute to Magic and many other card games. It is not Magic. For everything you can say begs and borrows from Magic, you can point out at least one innovation. Even if they win a legal battle, I have faith that we will not see this product go belly up. It may get revitalized, but it will not disappear. Spend your money on drafts as intended. I need someone to play tonight!

I will draft all night with you if you pass me rares and legendaries etc :) In fact I will draft all night either way. Actually i have a bit of an addiction. Please help me :(

Ertzi
05-16-2014, 02:33 PM
Spend your money on drafts as intended. I need someone to play tonight!

Well, now I can't anymore :( I spent all day reading these posts and it's now half past midnight here and I have an early morning. Sorry. Would love to draft with you some time (and probably lose badly) though :)

regomar
05-16-2014, 02:34 PM
short honest answer, We'll all probably go and play mtgo. hopefully it won't come to that though.

MTGO is a terribly designed client that has been terrible for a decade. Wizards have proven themselves utterly incompetent at every aspect of software design, even to the extent of not being able to choose a proper outsourcing company to do the job when they failed

I have no interest in playing their garbage.

nicosharp
05-16-2014, 02:34 PM
I think I finally fought off the rare draft itch.. but that entirely depends on the rares not being Cerebral Fulminations, Infernos, and Shrewd Manipulations :P. Oh, and Comet Strikes. We will probably have a group of cornerstone people on tonight drafting. If you want to join us for chat, you can add me to your friends list, and send me a message.

Kami
05-16-2014, 02:37 PM
Wouldn't it be hilarious if people from Hasbro/Wizards themselves backed this game? :)

Xexist
05-16-2014, 02:37 PM
I think I finally fought off the rare draft itch.. but that entirely depends on the rares not being Cerebral Fulminations, Infernos, and Shrewd Manipulations :P. Oh, and Comet Strikes. We will probably have a group of cornerstone people on tonight drafting. If you want to join us for chat, you can add me to your friends list, and send me a message.

Tell me more about this Cornerstone. PM me

Xexist
05-16-2014, 02:38 PM
Wouldn't it be hilarious if people from Hasbro/Wizards themselves backed this game? :)

I am 99% sure some did. Just to spy.

Yoss
05-16-2014, 02:40 PM
Tell me more about this Cornerstone. PM me

Just go to the Guild Recruitment subforum. Cornerstone is near the top of the list, currently.

nicosharp
05-16-2014, 02:46 PM
Tell me more about this Cornerstone. PM me
Links in Sig - and on Guild Forums. Check-out our forums to learn more.

On subject: The Cornerstone happens to be made up of a bunch of old men(When I say old, we still have ppl in late 20's) that gave up on Magic years ago due to reality, and WotC's inability to create a decent platform game. Many of us switched to other games, or just turned to PC gaming in general. Some of us still play paper TCGs, and still play paper magic but only in very limited settings due to not having enough time to get together with friends in-person to play it. WotC missed a 10+ year opportunity to do what Hex is doing now. Every opportunity WotC tried to get into the digital market was met with little success given their inability to transfer their entire card game with all mechanics to the digital space. MTG:O is a dreadful and overpriced product that refuses to innovate.

Xenavire
05-16-2014, 02:56 PM
Wouldn't it be hilarious if people from Hasbro/Wizards themselves backed this game? :)

Barring corporate spies, I am sure there are at least one or two who might have gotten mixed up in Hex purely because it looked good. :D

blakegrandon
05-16-2014, 03:02 PM
Barring corporate spies, I am sure there are at least one or two who might have gotten mixed up in Hex purely because it looked good. :D

Surely you mean it's because the Hasbro employees confused Hex for MTG.


*Note, sarcasm detector, Hex is not MTG and should not be confused for the decrepit product known as MTG. Hasbro, you do not has permission to quote me out of context.

maniza
05-16-2014, 03:08 PM
MTGO is a terribly designed client that has been terrible for a decade. Wizards have proven themselves utterly incompetent at every aspect of software design, even to the extent of not being able to choose a proper outsourcing company to do the job when they failed

I have no interest in playing their garbage.

have you seen duels of the plainswalkers? its not that they cant do it, thats what angers me the most, it that they simply wont do it and when someone comes along that does all we tcg players have been asking for and more they try to shut it down.

the_artic_one
05-16-2014, 03:12 PM
have you seen duels of the plainswalkers? its not that they cant do it, thats what angers me the most, it that they simply wont do it and when someone comes along that does all we tcg players have been asking for and more they try to shut it down.

They don't make DoTP in house, they contract it out to Stainless Games. They make MTGO in house.

Xenavire
05-16-2014, 03:16 PM
They don't make DoTP in house, they contract it out to Stainless Games. They make MTGO in house.

They could collaborate. But still, DotP misses a lot of key features that MTGO has, and adding them together would not be a trivial pursuit.

larryhl
05-16-2014, 03:17 PM
I do have a friend who is a contractor at WotC, and according to him, software development over there really is a complete mess.

Freebird_Falcon
05-16-2014, 03:17 PM
A point that was brought up a few (15?...20?) pages ago by GatticusFinch that's stuck in my head. The whole tapping comment 'If it's not broke don't fix it". GatticusFinch mentioned that the comment by Crypto was significant and negative in a legal way. I wonder if there are any other games out there that use a marking mechanism (be it turning to the side or whatever...just something that would fall under the patent as it stands now) that don't pay a fee to WoTC that could be used as an example of not being broke. If there are, any one of them could be pointed at by CZE couldn't they?

Except this isn't correct. CZE did not state this, a reviewer that they invited to see the game did. And in context, it is not as damning as it appears considering the paragraph ends with "but that's really where the similarities end."


They settled for a picture of Link with his hat off.

hahah



For a UI and semantic change, instead of showing a deck what if each player has a 'pool' in a chalice or something which your champion then pulls a random card to signify drawing a card from your deck? That way, it's no longer a deck, but a pool of effects and troops your champion can call upon to help them fight other champions.

Could even have some nice effects at the beginning of your turn to show a card rising from the pool of arcane liquid. Like a rippling and then the card slowly rising, dripping and then being added to your hand.

This is actually pretty badass. It could be a pool akin to the Wheels of Fate (sans bust) and would fit thematically! And like mentioned previously, the pool water reflection could be the sleeves.

ossuary
05-16-2014, 03:54 PM
Yeah, the idea of the pool of cards is pretty frickin' sweet. Even if you saw just the image of the sleeve floating under the surface of the water, that would be fine (and your opponent would of course see the backs of the cards in your hand as normal). Get to it, CZE!

sckolar
05-16-2014, 04:03 PM
That will just raise awareness of HEX.

Although HEX by pure common sense does in fact copy & paste everything MTG is, technically speaking (And the laws do work technically) HEX does not actually steal, or use any basic elements. Play style is almost exactly the same, but all the names are changed.
Resources = Color
Troops = Creature

Of course I do not believe it to be impossible, but I do think it will take a good lawyer.

HEX also has it's own defense: It is the first MMO TCGRPG, and unlike Wizards of The Coast, Cryptozoic is actually setting up a huge online TCG, where MTG only has parcels of their game online (Meaning not all the cards are available in their games. It is more physical, where HEX is only planned to be digital.

blakegrandon
05-16-2014, 04:04 PM
This is actually pretty badass. It could be a pool akin to the Wheels of Fate (sans bust) and would fit thematically! And like mentioned previously, the pool water reflection could be the sleeves.

Heathen.

I advocate for removing the deck and instead have a picture of boobs and each turn Cory's face dunks into them and pulls out a card with his teeth.

Xenavire
05-16-2014, 04:06 PM
Yeah, the idea of the pool of cards is pretty frickin' sweet. Even if you saw just the image of the sleeve floating under the surface of the water, that would be fine (and your opponent would of course see the backs of the cards in your hand as normal). Get to it, CZE!

I think this is a pretty popular idea really... I also quite like it, the 'pool' of cards just seems so... Right.

I wonder what the graveyard and void should be? :p

koobiak
05-16-2014, 04:10 PM
Why over-think it. . .make the graveyard tombstones with the art on them. Void can mimic pool look and feel.

Tinuvas
05-16-2014, 04:11 PM
Except this isn't correct. CZE did not state this, a reviewer that they invited to see the game did. And in context, it is not as damning as it appears considering the paragraph ends with "but that's really where the similarities end."


Ah! I didn't check the source out myself. Shame on me. Thanks for the history lesson. It has been too long since the KS for me to remember everything.

maniza
05-16-2014, 04:15 PM
official satement coming early next week

daiten
05-16-2014, 04:20 PM
Heathen.

I advocate for removing the deck and instead have a picture of boobs and each turn Cory's face dunks into them and pulls out a card with his teeth.

:D I want this!

blakegrandon
05-16-2014, 04:22 PM
official satement coming early next week

I have to wait days before finding out whether they will take my suggestion seriously?!? >.<

Bloodiron
05-16-2014, 04:25 PM
Why over-think it. . .make the graveyard tombstones with the art on them. Void can mimic pool look and feel.

I rather like the current swirly to signify the Void.

I also like your idea for the graveyard: simple, clean and efficient. Plus, when a player plays Blessing the Fallen, the tombstone can glow with a soft golden like radiance and maybe have a sunburst when the troops inside are Inspiring incoming troops. But I'm getting ahead of myself and focusing on one card too much with that :P

Hieronymous
05-16-2014, 04:53 PM
Barring corporate spies, I am sure there are at least one or two who might have gotten mixed up in Hex purely because it looked good. :D

I am virtually certain that I've seen people who identified themselves as WotC employees had backed Hex, though that may not have been on this forum.

Guap
05-16-2014, 05:05 PM
So I guess we aren't getting a Friday update then

EntropyBall
05-16-2014, 05:07 PM
Heathen.

I advocate for removing the deck and instead have a picture of boobs and each turn Cory's face dunks into them and pulls out a card with his teeth.

Thanks for this. :)

BossHoss
05-16-2014, 05:10 PM
How about removing another similarity from MtG and the discard pile is not referred to as the graveyard but instead "The spike"?

I love the pool idea akin to the pack opening experience for drawing a card so I think this could be a fitting "partner". Like a receipt spike since this is a digital tcg I am not as heartbroken to see my legendary cards impaled on a spike!

1836

EntropyBall
05-16-2014, 05:13 PM
It's pretty obvious you're not a patent or copyright attorney. Your description of the trade dress issue was completely misleading. I don't know if you're an actual lawyer, if you are your focus is in a field far removed from the concepts going on here. Which is fine, but pretending you're an expert isn't helping anyone.

I'd say quite a few people in this thread have been helped by his interpretation of the legalese. I do find it entertaining that you are willing to just blow off the opinions of several actual lawyers and then tell us about how its going to pan out.

Glae
05-16-2014, 05:17 PM
It *is* the internet. Blowing off experts because you have a phd in armchairing is par for the course.

GreyGriffin
05-16-2014, 05:30 PM
You know what you can do if you love the game?

Buy Plat. Seriously. The more plat you get the more money Hex will have to mount a credible legal defense.

I wouldn't touch MTGO with a ten foot pole. The client is a shaky, unstable piece of crap, and it's buried in the years of "tradition" that kept me out of Magic as a casual player. Hex is a superior product to MTGO, offering not only MTGO's multiplayer features but also meaningful (and hopefully fun) single player gameplay.

I am already collector tier, but I put $5 towards plat to support the product because I want to keep playing..

mudkip
05-16-2014, 06:15 PM
@mudkip - You've come to a very wrong conclusion.

Very late reply, but I know. I've read more and now I'm back to being scared.

Hieronymous
05-16-2014, 07:00 PM
Very late reply, but I know. I've read more and now I'm back to being scared.

The more research I do the less I'm worried about the merits of the case. The copyright claims are weak, the "trade dress" stuff is ludicrous, and the patents for MTG seem deeply flawed in many ways. The primary fear seems to just be the financial drain on Hex, LLC from litigation costs.

darkwonders
05-16-2014, 07:33 PM
Note this is not me. I just found it on the Hex subreddit. Very interesting to read for anyone else who isn't a lawyer.

http://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/05/understanding-the-wizards-v-hex-lawsuit-in-plain-english/