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EntropyBall
05-14-2014, 02:06 PM
Just saw this, not very good news for Hex. Even if it were without merit (hell if I know), I'm guessing Hasbro has deeper pockets to fund a team of lawyers.

http://company.wizards.com/content/wizards-coast-files-complaint-against-cryptozoic-entertainment-and-hex-entertainment

CZE has provided an offical statement in response:
https://hextcg.com/official-legal-statement/ (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=35758)

Cory has also released a similar message:
https://hextcg.com/hex-update-from-cory/

Here's a write-up of the case by someone on the internet who is a lawyer. Maybe this will save GatticusFinch the trouble of writing up a summary (thx Hammer for the link).
http://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/05/understanding-the-wizards-v-hex-lawsuit-in-plain-english/ (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/05/understanding-the-wizards-v-hex-lawsuit-in-plain-english/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

HexTCGPro put up a good article highlighting the many differences between Hex and MTG. It provides a good contrast to the claims made in WotC's complaint.
http://hextcgpro.com/nothing-new-under-entraths-sun/


Some more relevant links from Yoss:
When "Hex Entertainment, LLC" came about (just before KS in 2013):
http://www.bizapedia.com/ca/HEX-ENTERTAINMENT-LLC.html

About Copyrights on video games:
http://www.gamedevelopment.com/view/feature/187385/clone_wars_the_five_most_.php?print=1

More about Trade Dress (for websites):
http://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/x/273828/IT+internet/Trade+Dress+Can+Be+Viable+Means+of+Protecting+Webs ites+from+Competitors+LookAlike+Sites

Richard Garfield on the evolution of games, and MTG's heritage in particular:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/238b

I'll update this post if more real info becomes available.

fuzzywuzhe
05-14-2014, 02:09 PM
They don't really have a case here. While they do use similar elements and ui as magic and duel of the planewalkers theres no legal protection for things like that. Just like mmo's most of them use the same type of races and ui and abilities but they arent infringing on anything. People can sue on anything.

israel.kendall
05-14-2014, 02:11 PM
This would be like Everquest sueing world of Warcraft.

MatWith1T
05-14-2014, 02:13 PM
Armchair Lawyer thread commence!

syphonhail
05-14-2014, 02:13 PM
A lawsuit without merit can still chill sales and give magic breathing room to fix its maligned beta. This saddens me a bit.

deathandtexas
05-14-2014, 02:14 PM
http://www.scribd.com/doc/224144304/Wizards-of-the-Coast-v-Cryptozoic-Entertainment-et-al

Ridian
05-14-2014, 02:14 PM
I like it, they're effectively providing Cryptozoic and Hex free publicity by doing this

Quasari
05-14-2014, 02:15 PM
It's a sign that they see the game as a threat. The game plays different enough that it's a different entity and no copyrights should be infringed. Patents expired, so there's nothing there. IP and Trade Dress maybe, but they've been careful to use different keywords and names of cards(save very common english names).

Basically it's just a move to try to kill it before it's a competitor.

blakegrandon
05-14-2014, 02:17 PM
They don't really have a case here.

Doesn't really matter because:

Magic: The Gathering is the world’s best strategy game with more than 20 million players and fans worldwide.

You can't go up against the world's best strategy game!


Wizards is a Delaware limited liability company, maintaining its principal place of business at 1600 Lind Avenue Southwest, Suite 400, Renton, Washington 98057

Good to see Hasbro pretty much blatantly admitting to tax evasion...

maniza
05-14-2014, 02:20 PM
well thats kind of dick move. specialy since crypto have stated they are big fans and even make some cards that are clearly tribures to magic. but i guess thats how things are in the buissness world.

Stopsight
05-14-2014, 02:20 PM
Good luck to them getting a decision IP infringement in video games has no precedents really and hex is dissimilar enough that there isn't really any way they win. Will just be a potential financial drag.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 02:20 PM
Doesn't really matter because:


You can't go up against the world's best strategy game!

I find it ironic that they judge themselves better only because they were there first - I was slowly driven away by the declining quality, among other reasons, and I refuse to go back - some superior game, since I made those decisions far before Hex was an option. :p

Xexist
05-14-2014, 02:21 PM
This is BS. I hope MTG lose a shitload of money over this and have t pay HEX legal fees. (Even if that has 0 chance of happening :P )

Gwaer
05-14-2014, 02:21 PM
I also think it's much more of a good thing than a bad one. But we'll see.

Lukezors
05-14-2014, 02:23 PM
I've honestly been worried about this for awhile as , to be honest, the core mechanics of HEX are the core mechanics of MTG..

blakegrandon
05-14-2014, 02:24 PM
Magic is played using elaborately illustrated cards that transport players into an imaginary realm in which they do battle with one another

Does this mean I can sue them for not actually transporting me to an imaginary realm?

Quasari
05-14-2014, 02:24 PM
I've honestly been worried about this for awhile as , to be honest, the core mechanics of HEX are the core mechanics of MTG..
The detailed parts of it aren't though. Plus you can't copyright game mechanics and the Patents expired.

nicosharp
05-14-2014, 02:24 PM
All publicity is good publicity!

I am surprised this didn't happen sooner. I assume WoTC took a long time to get all their ducks in a row for the suit. I love this game, but it is a mirrored product using a slightly different language to rely the same game-play functionality for PvP, with subtle differences splashed in. Hopefully it all works out in Hex's favor, but I am sure WoTC is fearing for their bottom-line as this game fleshes out. People will not have the income or time to play both, and most will take the easy road to gaming online than traveling to hobby shops.

If they only spent as much time creating a robust online client for MTG:O they wouldn't even sweat this endeavor.

fuzzywuzhe
05-14-2014, 02:25 PM
I also like how in their so called lawsuit that they also fail to mention in all the ways hex is different than magic, especially the fact taht it is a full fledge mmo with dungeons and raids that magic the gathering never had and may not ever have with magic online. Also to say that hex is a full copy of this game they would also have to say every other card game is too.

deathandtexas
05-14-2014, 02:33 PM
I also like how in their so called lawsuit that they also fail to mention in all the ways hex is different than magic, especially the fact taht it is a full fledge mmo with dungeons and raids that magic the gathering never had and may not ever have with magic online. Also to say that hex is a full copy of this game they would also have to say every other card game is too.


Well, from their perspective, they are currently losing money to HEX. A Hex WITHOUT dungeons or raids or "full fledged" MMO features. Right now, the game is essentially magic draft with some tweaks. I expected this to happen at some point. IANAL, but the complaint is quite convincing if you read through it. It sucks because I like Hex; however, I also respect the right of companies to protect their IP. It will be interesting to see how it turns out. Most likely, WTC knows it will be quite a financial hit to CZE just to go through the legal process which could turn things for the worse if they haven't been good with the extra cash they brought in from the Kickstarter.

Zomnivore
05-14-2014, 02:34 PM
To celebrate, I think we should commission a new Dingler AA card.

Please please make it a parody to the idiot who suggested this lawsuit.

IN fact.

Sell it as another exclusive and help fund the legal battle.

TJTaylor
05-14-2014, 02:39 PM
I think we all saw this coming. Hopefully CZE did as well and put aside some funds in anticipation of this. I don't think Wizards has a case here but that doesn't mean they aren't prepared to drag CZE through the legal system until they cry uncle.

ossuary
05-14-2014, 02:39 PM
Next Wizards is going to sue the inventor of Gin Rummy, because every turn, you draw a card. It's a clone!

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 02:39 PM
Christ they made a fuckton of mistakes with this lawsuit. Bushido is nothing like Rage, yet they compare the two directly. No-one calls Resources 'Mana' either. Plus there are just straight up errors in there.

I only worry that it is a jury based trail - a jury is likely not going to understand the differences, especially when the Hasbro side will only ever point out the sames.

Also, they think CZE copied the plot? What a load of tripe. A single planet that was hit by a magic meteor. I never saw an MTG set even close to that. Plus all the sentient undead, the viscous bunnies, etc.

Quasari
05-14-2014, 02:41 PM
I also like how in their so called lawsuit that they also fail to mention in all the ways hex is different than magic, especially the fact taht it is a full fledge mmo with dungeons and raids that magic the gathering never had and may not ever have with magic online. Also to say that hex is a full copy of this game they would also have to say every other card game is too.

They have no reason to mention any differences. The complaint is to paint a picture that they are right. Heck, they outright omit stuff left and right to make statements technically true, but only in the context they present it. However, this will probably help Hex more than hurt it.

Zomnivore
05-14-2014, 02:41 PM
I think almost everyone now calls them shards. Shard screwed etc.

So its not even like there are active bouts of misspoken verbiage going on anymore.

It was a matter of needing 'clean' easy to speak words...nothing even remotely close to 'confusing' the products for one and other.

Kami
05-14-2014, 02:42 PM
Oh, did you also see how they made a comment about the physical size of the cards? :)

Also it's interesting to note that one of our podcasters was outright mentioned in the lawsuit.

But seriously speaking, knowing how bad the copyright/patent system is in the US, this could be problematic imo.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 02:45 PM
40.

Further, by its sales through the Kickstarter campaign, Cryptozoic has obtained in excess of two million dollars, a sum that constitutes one of a number of losses of related revenues Wizards could reasonably have expected to earn.

Yeah, like I was going to pay them another cent. Self entitled assholes. I was never going to give them another cent, with or without Hex.

deathandtexas
05-14-2014, 02:46 PM
I think almost everyone now calls them shards. Shard screwed etc.

So its not even like there are active bouts of misspoken verbiage going on anymore.

It was a matter of needing 'clean' easy to speak words...nothing even remotely close to 'confusing' the products for one and other.

I have never, ever heard "shard screwed" - but I have heard mana screwed lots of times.

I think people are letting their love of Hex get in the way of honestly evaluating the similarities. Gin Rummy? Give me a break.

Quasari
05-14-2014, 02:46 PM
BTW here's a nice link about copyright stuff from the US copyright website

Copyright laws and games (http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html)

Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

Werlix
05-14-2014, 02:47 PM
I liked this part:


WHEREFORE, Wizards prays for judgment against Cryptozoic...

PopEye
05-14-2014, 02:50 PM
I'm actually really angry, i feel like i am personally being sued here.
i really hope this will end soon and to CZE's favor and that not too much money will go to the drain because of it.

Warrender
05-14-2014, 02:51 PM
WoTC knows Hex could develop into a competitor not only for its digital properties but maybe for the cardboard version someday. Especially as more of its playerbase ages over time.

blakegrandon
05-14-2014, 02:52 PM
Plot twist: Hasbro buys Hex.

Alternatively hasbro dumps a billion dollars to crush Hex just because they can.

hex_colin
05-14-2014, 02:53 PM
Well, Wizards just lost the thousands of dollars I spend on their cards every year. :(

No chance they WotC/Hasbro wins this, but it's a PITA nonetheless.

Xexist
05-14-2014, 02:53 PM
I have never, ever heard "shard screwed" - but I have heard mana screwed lots of times.

I think people are letting their love of Hex get in the way of honestly evaluating the similarities. Gin Rummy? Give me a break.

I agree HEX is very similar to MTG - as in 'inspired by', but so is ANY TCG, furthermore, I have read a lot of books about similar topics and themes, I have watched a lot of movies with similar plots and themes, similar does not even remotely mean the same, or that ideas were stolen.

Side note: Not that magic has got any money from me in a long long time. But now they have ensured they never will.

Philomorph
05-14-2014, 02:54 PM
Every single backer of Hex needs to write an email to the following address: Hasbrobrandpr@hasbro.com

Let them know that this is a dick move and that we will boycott all Hasbro and WotC products if this suit isn't withdrawn. I know it's not really enough people to sway them, but if we get some publicity it could at least make them notice.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 02:54 PM
I do wonder if this might not explain a portion of the jump into beta though. Once the game has a significant playerbase, it becomes increasingly difficult to rule against them (because it proves that the game is a different entity.) So I would think that pushing the PvE segment is probably related to this as well.

Kroan
05-14-2014, 02:54 PM
Can I just note that it's all threshold's fault for making that blog post?

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 02:55 PM
Plot twist: Hasbro buys Hex.

Alternatively hasbro dumps a billion dollars to crush Hex just because they can.

When they are complaining about damages around $500,000, I doubt they would drop a billion. They are just acting like children that was popular until the new kid turned up that one week, and now a few kids play with that new kid. They wouldn't seriously invest into destroying Hex if they would lose more than they would gain by that action.

the_artic_one
05-14-2014, 02:56 PM
Can I just note that it's all threshold's fault for making that blog post?
I feel really bad for Matt, having his post used point by point against us.

Aradon
05-14-2014, 02:57 PM
I don't think Wizards is necessarily counting on their lawsuit being successful. Wizards is much larger than CZE, I would imagine, and it's likely that the Hex budget is very tight, despite the massively successful kickstarter. A serious lawsuit would drain a lot of money, and if Wizards loses, it'll still hurt Hex quite a bit. Even if they make a feature complete release, I suppose that money comes out of marketing, which would suit their competitors just fine.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 02:58 PM
I don't think Wizards is necessarily counting on their lawsuit being successful. Wizards is much larger than CZE, I would imagine, and it's likely that the Hex budget is very tight, despite the massively successful kickstarter. A serious lawsuit would drain a lot of money, and if Wizards loses, it'll still hurt Hex quite a bit. Even if they make a feature complete release, I suppose that money comes out of marketing, which would suit their competitors just fine.

Just makes our participation in the advertisement of Hex all the more important.

Werlix
05-14-2014, 02:58 PM
I feel really bad for Matt, having his post used point by point against us.

Yep... Thanks alot Matt... geez

rjselzler
05-14-2014, 02:59 PM
I don't think Wizards is necessarily counting on their lawsuit being successful. Wizards is much larger than CZE, I would imagine, and it's likely that the Hex budget is very tight, despite the massively successful kickstarter. A serious lawsuit would drain a lot of money, and if Wizards loses, it'll still hurt Hex quite a bit. Even if they make a feature complete release, I suppose that money comes out of marketing, which would suit their competitors just fine.

Any money lost on marketing will likely be offset by the sheer amount of media attention this sort of play gets in the gamer community. See the Banner Saga ordeal as an example. Penny Arcade spoof inc in 3, 2, 1...

Perfectblue
05-14-2014, 03:01 PM
Any money lost on marketing will likely be offset by the sheer amount of media attention this sort of play gets in the gamer community. See the Banner Saga ordeal as an example. Penny Arcade spoof inc in 3, 2, 1...

There has already been a Penny Arcade comic of Hex.

Werlix
05-14-2014, 03:01 PM
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

Case closed? Or am I missing something?

Werlix
05-14-2014, 03:01 PM
There has already been a Penny Arcade comic of Hex.

There will be another

blakegrandon
05-14-2014, 03:02 PM
I liked this part:

Did Hasbro invoke Trial by combat? It's not a trial unless they settle it in the sight of god.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1416262/Court-refuses-trial-by-combat.html

Cryptozoic should demand trial by Ghurka knives.


Yep... Thanks alot Matt... geez

So are we taking our pitchforks to Matt or Hasbro?

So confused

/short attention span

Kami
05-14-2014, 03:02 PM
So, being that most of us aren't lawyers... can anyone explain exactly why we shouldn't be worried? Or better yet, explain how the process works (trial, etc) and the most likely outcome?

I'm curious and semi-concerned at the moment after reading into depth the lawsuit. Especially the part where it says they reissued their patent.

Also: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2372899

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 03:03 PM
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

Case closed? Or am I missing something?

I think Magic is going off the basis of the card rules and layouts etc. Still a load of tripe, SO many TCG's use very VERY similar layouts.

Zomnivore
05-14-2014, 03:04 PM
I have never, ever heard "shard screwed" - but I have heard mana screwed lots of times.

I think people are letting their love of Hex get in the way of honestly evaluating the similarities. Gin Rummy? Give me a break.

Have you watched any streamer ever?

You can't make a modern day military shooter lets say COD, and then try to sue Battlefield for trying to use military equipment in their games.

Games can be very similar in the same space.

Warrender
05-14-2014, 03:06 PM
Yep... Thanks alot Matt... geez

I know you're just kidding but I doubt they weren't aware of Hex before that. i wouldn't be surprised if some of their employees were backers.

Gwaer
05-14-2014, 03:08 PM
The copyright bit is pretty much just fluff, it's there as emotional baggage, games are not subject to those rules

https://www.google.com/patents/USRE37957?pg=PA25&dq=United+States+Patent+No.+RE+37,957&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BOlzU_TXFfLHsASeloHwDw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ

there is the meat of the discussion.

Werlix
05-14-2014, 03:09 PM
I know you're just kidding but I doubt they weren't aware of Hex before that. i wouldn't be surprised if some of their employees were backers.

Yeah I know :) I was using the heavy sarcastic voice in my head as I typed it :)

I'm a fan of the show and I know how funny they will think this whole thing is and that they were mentioned in the law suit.

schild
05-14-2014, 03:09 PM
I'm going to go ahead and say that the robot intern mod bots whatever should lock this thread and nuke any thread about this lawsuit.

Thrawn
05-14-2014, 03:10 PM
I'm going to go ahead and say that the robot intern mod bots whatever should lock this thread and nuke any thread about this lawsuit.

I dunno, I'm sure this thread will be full of meaningful discussion.

Badmoonz
05-14-2014, 03:14 PM
The only real legitimate claim I am worried about is the interface similarity to duel of the planeswalkers. I enjoy Magic a lot, and while Hex is similar it is not the same thing. Particularly so when you start looking into PVE.

deathandtexas
05-14-2014, 03:14 PM
When they are complaining about damages around $500,000, I doubt they would drop a billion. They are just acting like children that was popular until the new kid turned up that one week, and now a few kids play with that new kid. They wouldn't seriously invest into destroying Hex if they would lose more than they would gain by that action.

Really? Look into Harley-Davidson and Buell. They did just that.

Werlix
05-14-2014, 03:15 PM
I have never, ever heard "shard screwed" - but I have heard mana screwed lots of times.

I think people are letting their love of Hex get in the way of honestly evaluating the similarities. Gin Rummy? Give me a break.

To be fair, does it matter from a legal standpoint how some members of the game's community refer to a game mechanic? Isn't the actual name of the mechanic/element the important part? In this case, "Shard"?

AdamAoE2
05-14-2014, 03:16 PM
I will never again spend another penny on MTG Products. As somebody that would often spend hundreds of dollars on MTG cards both IRL and Magic Online, the fact that they would attempt to launch a bogus lawsuit is more of a smear on their own company then on Cryptozoic. The games have similarities, but really so does EVERY resource based TCG.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 03:17 PM
The copyright bit is pretty much just fluff, it's there as emotional baggage, games are not subject to those rules

https://www.google.com/patents/USRE37957?pg=PA25&dq=United+States+Patent+No.+RE+37,957&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BOlzU_TXFfLHsASeloHwDw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ

there is the meat of the discussion.

Christ, according to this, everything from baseball cards to Yugioh should be at risk. At least from my quick glancing. Basically, if they didn't sue Yugioh, Blizzard (for Hearthstone) and a bunch of other companies, they have no legal leg to stand on here.

In fact, I would say Hearthstone infringes almost as much as Hex does, looking at everything there.

Werlix
05-14-2014, 03:17 PM
http://kotaku.com/wizards-of-the-coast-is-suing-someone-for-cloning-magic-1576546829/all

Mike411
05-14-2014, 03:17 PM
"Depending on their pledge level, backers can receive exclusive cards only available through the Kickstarter campaign, customizable sleeves, starter sets, booster packs, in-game bonuses such as increased loot drops and special equipment"

Good job wizards, now explain how magic has no loot drops or equipment.


Enchantments are pretty much the same as Constants. It wouldn’t surprise me to see
Creature Constant come along in an expansion or two.

Did you forget to proofread your lawsuit, wizards? Anyhow, I don't think I'm skimming past 10 pages, I don't think this has a chance in hell of succeeding, and I certainly won't be buying any wizards products after this.

Gwaer
05-14-2014, 03:18 PM
I really think that's the biggest issue with their patent, it's too broad, it really does cover virtually any resource based card game...

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 03:21 PM
Really? Look into Harley-Davidson and Buell. They did just that.

My point is that Wizards/Hasbro has barely a legal leg to stand on, if they fail there, will they even bother fighting anymore? Obviously they are still going to control the lions share of the TCG community due to loyalty, they would have to seriously consider Hex to be a massive threat (and by massive it would have to literally steal over 30% of the Magic playerbase, and not just pick up players who left and weren't coming back.)

I think it is more likely that this is a scare tactic, and if it fails they will just ignore Hex and focus on keeping up player loyalty. It isn't like they can legitimately fight Hex any better than just by doing what they already do - make new cards and sets, and keep up all the tournaments.

AdamAoE2
05-14-2014, 03:24 PM
What makes me more angry is that rather then continuing to innovate and continuing to push the envelope of what their TCG is capable of, Wizards would rather stifle creativity and destroy a game with so much potential, while continuing to push out sub-par sets.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 03:26 PM
So I was just wondering, what if Hasbro/WotC won? Could Hex still exist if they changed a lot of the functionality? Or would they be forced to cease development instantly, with no chance to save Hex?

Because I would rather relearn the game and still have something fun I want to play, than to have nothing (cause seriously, fuck Magic if this is the course of action they take.)

maniza
05-14-2014, 03:27 PM
well an article in kotaku!! that will raise awearness of the game

Yoss
05-14-2014, 03:28 PM
Well, Wizards just lost the thousands of dollars I spend on their cards every year. :(

No chance they WotC/Hasbro wins this, but it's a PITA nonetheless.

I was still spending on MTG since the KS, and was planning to spend more money on MTG until I saw this thread and read the brief. We should start a letter-writing campaign to Hasbro/Wizards that they're cutting their own arm off here.

And someone else here provided the address: Hasbrobrandpr@hasbro.com


I feel really bad for Matt, having his post used point by point against us.

Hopefully CZE will take Matt on as a witness to give full context to the discussion.


I don't think Wizards is necessarily counting on their lawsuit being successful. Wizards is much larger than CZE, I would imagine, and it's likely that the Hex budget is very tight, despite the massively successful kickstarter. A serious lawsuit would drain a lot of money, and if Wizards loses, it'll still hurt Hex quite a bit. Even if they make a feature complete release, I suppose that money comes out of marketing, which would suit their competitors just fine.

This is what really boils my blood. Even if Wizards loses the case, it's a huge burden on CZE, while Hasbro will barely notice.


Regarding the patent, does Hasbro have to prove that Hex copied all elements or just one or more particular elements? If the former, it seems unlikely to succeed. If the latter, it seems absurd; so many of those items are vague to the point that they apply to hundreds of published games.

blakegrandon
05-14-2014, 03:29 PM
My point is that Wizards/Hasbro has barely a legal leg to stand on, if they fail there, will they even bother fighting anymore?


You're assuming that as a company they will be rational about this.

Companies very rarely act rationally when it comes to lawsuits.

All this money, all this power, and at the end of the day they tend to throw tantrums like little kids.

The problem is that companies like Microsoft and Apple make more money licensing their patents/suing people that infringe on them than they make actually producing products.

The margins in lawsuits/licensing is far higher than being innovative, resulting in companies like Hasbro jumping on the sue happy bandwagon.

Remember, the lawsuit is asking for at LEAST $500k in damages, they won't put a cap on what they want because they want as much as the courts will give them.

If they occur a few hundred million dollars in legal expenses they'll try to push it on to Cryptozoic, obviously I doubt they would spend a billion dollars to crush Cryptozoic because they wouldn't even need a fraction of that to keep them in court indefinitely.

Hence why I feel the most logical solution is Trial by Combat. I will fight for Cryptozoic if asked nicely.

Gwaer
05-14-2014, 03:30 PM
It's the latter. Welcome to patent law!

Kami
05-14-2014, 03:35 PM
So I was just wondering, what if Hasbro/WotC won? Could Hex still exist if they changed a lot of the functionality? Or would they be forced to cease development instantly, with no chance to save Hex?

Hasbro/WotC is seeking a permanent injunction plus money to cover their perceived losses and legal fees. If they won, HEX is done.

Werlix
05-14-2014, 03:36 PM
It's the latter. Welcome to patent law!

So I guess every single TCG ever, physical or digital, is violating the patent then too?

DarkSeverance
05-14-2014, 03:38 PM
In terms of Copyright, if it hasn't been brought up already...

"Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form."

In terms of patent, that is a different thing. There is possibly some basis, but not enough to warrant anything substantial. Hasbro likes to do this all the time. Honestly... it is probably the best publicity for HEX.

Sonicrain
05-14-2014, 03:38 PM
All I want is for CZE to make a promo card of this event when they win the battle.

MAKE IT SO!

Gwaer
05-14-2014, 03:39 PM
pretty much, yep. And patent law isn't like trademark law, you don't have to enforce every infringement, and you can pick and choose your battles. It is incredibly broad though, and certainly could be invalidated by this.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 03:39 PM
So I guess every single TCG ever, physical or digital, is violating the patent then too?

Yeah, like 90% of all TCG's that weren't printed by wizards would violate this. Even Yugioh violates a huge number of those patent details.

primer
05-14-2014, 03:42 PM
Wizards had years to turn MTGO into what hex is today. They didn't and now they've been caught on their heels and are lashing out they only way they know how, bullying.

Daer
05-14-2014, 03:48 PM
In a hilarious coincidence the Threshold Podcast guys are visiting CZE tonight. And they were never heard from again...

Grumph
05-14-2014, 03:50 PM
Wizards had years to turn MTGO into what hex is today. They didn't and now they've been caught on their heels and are lashing out they only way they know how, bullying.

Exactly, they've had forever to put out a quality online game and completely squandered their chance... and the crap games that they have put out are pretty pathetic

Marsden
05-14-2014, 03:51 PM
I have no legal anything, or anything constructive to say. But I would just like to say:

Fuck you Wizards. Fuck you.

Kramer
05-14-2014, 03:52 PM
This is ridiculous. The creator of MtG, Richard Garfield just co-created the new Digital Card Game Solforge. Why we he do that if he could be sued by Hasbro. Everyone should disregard this frivolous lawsuit and continue supporting CZE by buying drafts entries and packs.

TJTaylor
05-14-2014, 03:54 PM
HEX should start a new kickstarter to pay for their legal fees. :)

S117
05-14-2014, 03:55 PM
The main part that pisses me off personally is their claim that that the KS funds directly represent funds WotC lost.

Piss off losers. I got the money for my KS pledges by SELLING my WotC products (i.e. my MTGO collection BEFORE I even heard of Hex) and never thinking twice about it.

Cry0
05-14-2014, 03:55 PM
Permanent injunction doesn't sound good for us backers. :( I hope CZE wins this..

Westane
05-14-2014, 03:55 PM
I just quit playing MTGO months ago, and now there's NO WAY I'm going back. Ever.

*Looks at Vintage Masters spoiler*

GOD DAMNIT!

EntropyBall
05-14-2014, 03:56 PM
I'm curious at what level of duplication people would consider Hex to violate MTG's IP rights? Do you guys think (legally or morally) that exploring the digital space alone would be enough, given that the base rules are nearly the same?

This is not Gin Rummy or Yugioh vs MTG. The legal brief has more than a page long list of game mechanics that are identical. Haven't phone companies sued each other (and won) just because a phone had the same visual style/shape?

S117
05-14-2014, 03:59 PM
HEX should start a new kickstarter to pay for their legal fees. :)

Don't have much money to spare...but I'd fund it.

EntropyBall
05-14-2014, 03:59 PM
The main part that pisses me off personally is their claim that that the KS funds directly represent funds WotC lost.

Piss off losers. I got the money for my KS pledges by SELLING my WotC products (i.e. my MTGO collection) and never thinking twice about it.

I did the same with my physical MTG cards, but they aren't claiming that all 2.2 million was lost revenue, and you have to figure there are people who cut back their MTG spending because they spent some money on Hex. I know I spent less on other video games because of the money I spent on Hex.

Svenn
05-14-2014, 04:00 PM
The whole list from "The chart below summarizes the nature and number of copied elements that Wizards found unacceptable" is hilarious to me. "Our game has 20 life, their game has 20 life! You win by reducing your opponent to 0 life. There's combat where you choose attacks and defenders. You draw one card a turn. It's the same game!"

Also, several things are just wrong. There are no "black" cards in Hex. Resource cards are not "mana". Rage vs Bushido? Not the same thing at all.

There are definitely similarities and Hex is very obviously inspired by MTG, but it's not a clone. I'm curious how many differences people here could come up with between the two games.

mach
05-14-2014, 04:01 PM
So many armchair lawyers here....

This is not unexpected, but is very serious. This is not something which CZE will be able to get out of just by telling the judge "games aren't copyrightable, kthxbye." Whatever else you may think about Hasbro, they're a big company which can afford very good lawyers. They also know the risks for them of such a lawsuit (angering your customers, giving publicity to the competition).

This is not something they're doing lightly or carelessly. They're not in the habit of recklessly suing their competition just because they think it's a threat. Like it or not, Hex is closer to MTG than other TCGs. Close enough for Hasbro to win? They believe so, and it will be up to a jury to decide.

theghost32
05-14-2014, 04:01 PM
I personally think this is a move by wizards that wil blow up in their face but hex can use free advertising

Gwaer
05-14-2014, 04:02 PM
Games specifically are not covered by copyright, which means shape, looks, feel, all of that is fair game, and the game market is much better off for it. It has real competition. The patent however is legit, though extremely broad, everyone should go and read it and see just how many card games would fall under its purview.

the threshold system of Hex is far superior to the MTG mana system imo, and just because one came first it should not preclude the other from existing. Hex and MTG have a lot of similarities, but they are not exact copies by any means. The different resource system, and permanent changes to cards that return to hand/gy are plenty for me, but even beyond that there are quite a few differences, plus they are just flat out lying in many cases. Bushido is the exact opposite of rage for example, and they felt they needed to list it repeatedly in their section of things being copied.

Personally I'd have liked for starting health to be 30, with a bit stronger base creatures in Hex, but the starting life total is not actually relevant to the game play other than to help keep matches a certain length. They're clearly reaching with a lot of their similarities.

Svenn
05-14-2014, 04:02 PM
This is not Gin Rummy or Yugioh vs MTG. The legal brief has more than a page long list of game mechanics that are identical. Haven't phone companies sued each other (and won) just because a phone had the same visual style/shape?
But look at the list, it's stupid stuff like both games have 20 life or you have a hand of 7 cards (so does 7 card draw Poker! and a billion other card games). Also, some of it is just wrong.

S117
05-14-2014, 04:03 PM
I did the same with my physical MTG cards, but they aren't claiming that all 2.2 million was lost revenue, and you have to figure there are people who cut back their MTG spending because they spent some money on Hex. I know I spent less on other video games because of the money I spent on Hex.

Oh I'm sure WotC lost money to the Hex KS from many people on many levels. My point was more a personal one. That I had personally ditched MTGO first, because it (and MtG in general) had devolved into a shit product, then backed Hex later when I found out about it.

HecatesLover
05-14-2014, 04:04 PM
Screw this anti competition crap. Competition is supposed to be what keeps capitalism honest and our legal system is now set up so the big kids can kill any competition that pops up. It is ridiculous, nobody's profits are sacrosanct. If someone puts out a better product for a better price than you then they deserve the money they make.

S117
05-14-2014, 04:05 PM
But look at the list, it's stupid stuff like both games have 20 life or you have a hand of 7 cards (so does 7 card draw Poker! and a billion other card games). Also, some of it is just wrong.

The problem, and what I hate about the American legal system, is you don't have to be correct or right...you just have to SOUND enough like it to convince a handful of people who likely have never heard of a TCG before...

blakegrandon
05-14-2014, 04:05 PM
So many armchair lawyers here....
They believe so, and it will be up to a jury to decide.

Aren't you being guilty of what you're accusing us of doing?

I am curious though, did Hasbro attempt to resolve this amicably with Cryptozoic before going to a lawsuit?

Also companies sue all the time regardless of if it would anger their customers, the lawyers don't care about the customers of hasbro, the lawyers only care about the results they get.

Hell according to Hasbro the 2 million dollars Cryptozoic got would have gone directly to them, arrogance at it's finest, Hasbro is so out of touch with it's customer base that it feels entitled to all of the gaming money it's customers set aside.

Gorgol
05-14-2014, 04:06 PM
The problem, and what I hate about the American legal system, is you don't have to be correct or right...you just have to SOUND enough like it to convince a handful of people who likely have never heard of a TCG before...

This is exactly what this will boil down to sadly.


I am curious though, did Hasbro attempt to resolve this amicably with Cryptozoic before going to a lawsuit?

According to the wizards.com link
Barbara Finigan, Senior Vice President and General Counsel of Hasbro. “We attempted to resolve this issue, but Cryptozoic was unwilling to settle the matter.”

AswanJaguar
05-14-2014, 04:09 PM
I would put a large amount of money that CZE's lawyers have been prepared for this day for months and have an arsenal of legal arguments at their disposal. CZE and Cory are not going to embark on a multi-million dollar venture without legal assurance that they are in the right. I'm not overly concerned and am happy that so many people are going to be hearing about Hex over the next few months!

Aradon
05-14-2014, 04:09 PM
I'm curious at what level of duplication people would consider Hex to violate MTG's IP rights? Do you guys think (legally or morally) that exploring the digital space alone would be enough, given that the base rules are nearly the same?

This is not Gin Rummy or Yugioh vs MTG. The legal brief has more than a page long list of game mechanics that are identical. Haven't phone companies sued each other (and won) just because a phone had the same visual style/shape?

Unfortunately, the primary difference between Hex and MtGO is the PvE campaign, which hasn't been implemented yet. Mechanically, it's clear that Hex's rules and build are not just inspired by, but directly derived from MtG's. The turn components, the chain, the card types, etc. There is some development and innovation in the current iteration of Hex, of course: the tweak to threshold, permanent instead of transient cards, and the champions.

Champions may be a significant enough development to signify a different product, as it's an element of gameplay that's not really reproducible in MtG.

S117
05-14-2014, 04:10 PM
According to the wizards.com link
Barbara Finigan, Senior Vice President and General Counsel of Hasbro. “We attempted to resolve this issue, but Cryptozoic was unwilling to settle the matter.”

Yes..."Unwilling" when you showed up and demanded millions of dollars? Or 50% royalties?
Oh CZE you stubborn stubborn people...

blakegrandon
05-14-2014, 04:11 PM
This is exactly what this will boil down to sadly.



According to the wizards.com link
Barbara Finigan, Senior Vice President and General Counsel of Hasbro. “We attempted to resolve this issue, but Cryptozoic was unwilling to settle the matter.”

I know Cryptozoic probably can't discuss the litigation but some day I hope we can find out how insulting the "attempts to resolve this issue" were.

Probably sent a cease and desist letter demanding payment immediately and then filed the lawsuit when Cryptozoic laughed at them.

It's kind of funny because Hasbro refused to pay royalties to the super soaker company and lost $80 million in the courts...
http://www.ajc.com/news/business/super-soaker-creator-awarded-729m-from-hasbro/nbjmm/

Hypocritical much Hasbro?

Svenn
05-14-2014, 04:11 PM
I am curious though, did Hasbro attempt to resolve this amicably with Cryptozoic before going to a lawsuit?

" Wizards moved to preserve and protect its intellectual property. In March of 2014, Wizards contacted Cryptozoic
and informed them of Wizards’ rights in the
Magic game. Wizards offered multiple opportunities to Cryptozoic to resolve this matter short of a formal assertion."

I'm curious as to what these contacts entailed, not that they could or would ever share this information.

rjselzler
05-14-2014, 04:12 PM
So, being that most of us aren't lawyers... can anyone explain exactly why we shouldn't be worried?

Because there's nothing we can do? :D

Hibbert
05-14-2014, 04:13 PM
IANAL, but here are my comments as an layperson who likes to follow IP law and litigation.

It seems like any of the rule similarity claims are completely spurious; rules aren't subject to IP protection. If they were Words with Friends would have been sued out of the water by Hasbro ages ago.

Claiming the "look" of a magic card is part of the trademark is highly suspect too. If that's the case, why haven't they been aggressively pursuing just about every single TCG/LCG ever, as the holder of a trademark should. Many use the similar layout of cost, power/toughness, frames surrounding artwork, etc. If they make this claim against Hex and not all those other games, it's almost like this is a lawsuit intended to chill a competitor, rather than protect their IP.(psst, I think it is) Despite all the comments they collected about the similarity of M:tG to Hex, they didn't find one where someone was actually confusing Hex for M:tG(also having random Internet postings in a court filing is always hilarious).

The patent issue is probably the most valid of their claims, but there are some issues there. The patent was pretty broad, and if I remember correctly pretty much only taken out for protective purposes(so Patent Troll Inc. couldn't sue them in Mesquite, TX). Despite all the TCG's that have come out, it's only come up in litigation once, when Nintendo and WotC were having issues over the Pokemon licensing. And that was settled out of court. Who knows if the patent will actually survive the courtroom? If it does survive the courtroom, it won't survive past September. That's when the 17 year term is up.

I think the main result of this motion by WotC will be some wasted development money going towards lawyers(which will likely be offset by the free publicity). The secondary effect will be some massive ill will towards WotC in the Hex community, perhaps beyond if WotC/Hasbro are seen as the "bad guy".

I'll be interested in seeing CZE's response to this filing(the actual legal response, I doubt they will be commenting on the issue via any other method aside from a press release acknowledging it).

Xexist
05-14-2014, 04:13 PM
Until this settles I could see this hurting Hex's income... whos going to want to sink money into a game that could be voided from play?

Werlix
05-14-2014, 04:15 PM
Unfortunately, the primary difference between Hex and MtGO is the PvE campaign, which hasn't been implemented yet. Mechanically, it's clear that Hex's rules and build are not just inspired by, but directly derived from MtG's. The turn components, the chain, the card types, etc. There is some development and innovation in the current iteration of Hex, of course: the tweak to threshold, permanent instead of transient cards, and the champions.

Champions may be a significant enough development to signify a different product, as it's an element of gameplay that's not really reproducible in MtG.

I can imagine CZE will try and get PvE out in beta asap now so that they can provide their own evidence of how unique their game is. PvE footage will really set Hex apart.

Though if it's just a matter of proving any single element of similarity then I guess they are screwed and so is any other TCG if Hasbro decided to go after them.

rjselzler
05-14-2014, 04:16 PM
Until this settles I could see this hurting Hex's income... whos going to want to sink money into a game that could be voided from play?

It doesn't impact my plan to spend money; I'll spend the same amount as before the news. Neither am I worried that I somehow "lost" my backer money.

S117
05-14-2014, 04:17 PM
Until this settles I could see this hurting Hex's income... whos going to want to sink money into a game that could be voided from play?

This is unfortunately what will happen to me...
If I lose out on the money I dropped on the KS...well I accepted that as a possibility when I backed it.
But I can't really afford to be spending more money on product that might (However hopefully slight) be sued into oblivion.

EDIT: Could that result in a counter-suit from CZE if they could prove WotC was being frivolous? Probably not...but it'd be hilarious if it happened.

Diesbudt
05-14-2014, 04:21 PM
Hasbro/WotC is seeking a permanent injunction plus money to cover their perceived losses and legal fees. If they won, HEX is done.

1 thing Hex would have to show is the vibrant backing to their game because of the dungeon, raid and PvE aspect to their game that has different mechanics.

Along with showing all the slight difference to the story, the champion with charge powers, the randomness some cards allow, equipment, etc.

Bloodiron
05-14-2014, 04:22 PM
Does anyone have another link to the actual suit itself? I'm having problems viewing the scribd one

Yoss
05-14-2014, 04:23 PM
I'm with Hex for the PvE, and I'm not the only one. The fact that PvP bears some significant similarities to MTG was not the driving factor in getting my money. Hex creates something totally new that MTG and MTGO have never done.

EntropyBall
05-14-2014, 04:24 PM
But look at the list, it's stupid stuff like both games have 20 life or you have a hand of 7 cards (so does 7 card draw Poker! and a billion other card games). Also, some of it is just wrong.

Yeah, lots of games have 1 similarity, but Hex has almost all of those. An iPhone doesn't have to worry about TV patents just because they both have screens, but if they just straight up cloned a Galaxy S5 and made it green, you can bet that would not be ok.

Eklypz
05-14-2014, 04:25 PM
realistically it is very similar to magic in its current form, pretty much identical with different names, same colors, almost the same kind of effects within those colors and gameplay to duels of planeswalker and years of kitchen rules.

I am an artist for my day job so deal a little with copyright and trademarks. If I make something with just a different name or color I am still infringing. This is really like if everquest would sue world of warcraft. WoW took what was good about previous MMORPGs and made it better, was not a significant change other than doing everything like it should have been done originally. They used the decade or so of previous games to get everything right, was not terribly original but done very well.

Wolfe
05-14-2014, 04:25 PM
I was still spending on MTG since the KS, and was planning to spend more money on MTG until I saw this thread and read the brief. We should start a letter-writing campaign to Hasbro/Wizards that they're cutting their own arm off here.


Yes, this. Most of us are MtG players too. 10,000 angry letters to WotC might help. I've been a big magic player for a long time. We were actually headed out to play Friday Night Magic drafts in a couple days despite having such a blast drafting like crazy in Hex. I guess not anymore.

Diesbudt
05-14-2014, 04:26 PM
Most likely, WTC knows it will be quite a financial hit to CZE just to go through the legal process which could turn things for the worse if they haven't been good with the extra cash they brought in from the Kickstarter.

Easy solution.

Everyone go buy 1,000,000,000 platinum.

rjselzler
05-14-2014, 04:26 PM
1 thing Hex would have to show is the vibrant backing to their game because of the dungeon, raid and PvE aspect to their game that has different mechanics.

Along with showing all the slight difference to the story, the champion with charge powers, the randomness some cards allow, equipment, etc.

Which I believe is ethically, if not legally, the case. That's why I backed; I wants me some PvE. I love draft, but that is secondary. If I only cared to draft limited, I'd suffer through MTGO. If Hex hand't marketed the PvE aspect heavily in the kickstarter, I'd not have backed (at least at the tier I did).

So the win/win for me would be that the lawsuit brings Hex into the spotlight for the gaming community and maybe plans to bring PvE online earlier in order to highlight the true differences. A man can dream, right? :D

Yoss
05-14-2014, 04:29 PM
So the win/win for me would be that the lawsuit brings Hex into the spotlight for the gaming community and maybe plans to bring PvE online earlier in order to highlight the true differences. A man can dream, right? :D

I'm totally ready for them to relase their ultra-buggy first dungeon that Cory's said he's played in-client. It's f2p content so it's not like anyone could reasonably complain when it crashes and they lose the loot. (They will still complain though. They always do.)

Diesbudt
05-14-2014, 04:33 PM
Which I believe is ethically, if not legally, the case. That's why I backed; I wants me some PvE. I love draft, but that is secondary. If I only cared to draft limited, I'd suffer through MTGO. If Hex hand't marketed the PvE aspect heavily in the kickstarter, I'd not have backed (at least at the tier I did).

So the win/win for me would be that the lawsuit brings Hex into the spotlight for the gaming community and maybe plans to bring PvE online earlier in order to highlight the true differences. A man can dream, right? :D

If i just liked draft i would have just done Magic in person. lol I am all in for the PvE

halfwing
05-14-2014, 04:34 PM
The problem, and what I hate about the American legal system, is you don't have to be correct or right...you just have to SOUND enough like it to convince a handful of people who likely have never heard of a TCG before...
Not just likely, its supposed to be an impartial jury, so they will likely request people who have never played either game, and will likely get it. So then they can point out all the similarities, read off the effects of a few cards from each game and go "Destroy target artifact. Can YOU tell which game it was from? No? That's beyond reasonable doubt! We win." The legal system is pretty terrible about that, and it happens pretty frequently.

THAT SAID, Hex is small, but hex isn't the company being sued. Crypto is. And while Crypto isn't as big as Hasbro, it IS fairly big, and it has the backing of Marvel, Cartoon Network, and other huge companies, and they wont fall that easily.

fabriazp
05-14-2014, 04:35 PM
Better call Saul !.. Srsly, I'm not even from US, and know nothing about your laws. Still Hex is the best option to play a MMO TCG, MTGO SUX badly, as you all said before me, wizard failed to do what cze did very well. They know cze is doing well everything related to business so they are afraid to lose a big portion of their player base, because hex has all the tool to take them (or stole them). Isnt a secret that people spend more time in PC than 5 years ago, and probably will spend more in the upcoming 5 years. If you can afford a game like this (expensive one) with the comodities of your own house, with a global market to trade/sell stuff in real time vs going from store to store for a trade, or waiting long buying in CardKingdom/SCG/ netsites, what will you pick? what will be the tendence in the upcoming years? THEY (WotC) KNOW THE REAL BIG PROBLEM THAT HEX MEAN TO THEM!! In the long run if HEX stays (what I hope happens) they will cry tears of blood for letting another company upgrade a game like magic (their own game lol) when they had so much time to do it and they didnt.

Sorry for my english, isnt my mother languaje but still i think its understandable

blakegrandon
05-14-2014, 04:35 PM
Yeah, lots of games have 1 similarity, but Hex has almost all of those. An iPhone doesn't have to worry about TV patents just because they both have screens, but if they just straight up cloned a Galaxy S5 and made it green, you can bet that would not be ok.

Uhh you do realize that both the Samsung phones and iphones are pretty much identical right?

They were also being made in the same factory by the same employees using the same electronic parts...
http://www.stableytimes.com/news/apple-shifts-secret-iphone-6-pegatron-foxconn-divorce-continues/16058/

Samsung and Apple also sued the hell out of each other for "patent" infringement.

Maybe not the best example to use...

Mahes
05-14-2014, 04:36 PM
I am not sure how to deal with this news. Advertising is nice, but this game is not ready for advertising and bad advertising can be detrimental. This kind of comes down to expense and how long this is dragged out. The fact that they chose to monetize the system has to mean that they might have been getting to a point financially where money needed to come in. If that is the case, then this lawsuit can only hurt them and might be a valid concern regardless of whether they can win or not.

kidincredible
05-14-2014, 04:37 PM
Important question: Will this actually go to a jury? Or is this the sort of thing that a judge reviews and decides on their own.

I'd actually prefer the latter because I'd assume it would be a judge well versed in patent law and violations, not members of the general public that don't know a card game beyond poker or rummy.

Refugee
05-14-2014, 04:39 PM
I'm not going to do it because I have better things to do. HOWEVER...

It'd be pretty hilarious to see people picketing at magic tournaments over this.

fitzle
05-14-2014, 04:42 PM
Not that I want to defend MTG on this issue, but they do have a right to protect their IP. I've played tons of CCG's and HEX is the closest I've ever seen to MTG. I mean, people have been comparing the two since HEX gameplay was first released. At a certain point MTG has to draw a line otherwise someone will eventually make an exact clone of MTG.

There are differences between the two games for sure, hopefully the courts will decide the differences are enough and side with Crypto. I just hope this doesn't stop development or anything drastic while this is being resolved.

Badgered
05-14-2014, 04:44 PM
DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, but I am a fan of and avid player of both Magic: The Gathering and HEX.

I think a lot of people here are letting their fandom of HEX cloud their judgment. Many people here and on other media have voiced their concerns about HEX being extremely similar to Magic: The Gathering. I would argue that there are more mechanical similarities than differences, and some of those differences are so small as to not even exist. You could copy the Magic comprehensive rules and have the vast majority of them apply to HEX minus some name differences here and there. This is a problem. There are also HEX cards that are carbon-copies of Magic cards. This is a massive problem. The game also looks and feels a lot like Magic. This is also a problem.

The reason that World of Warcraft TCG, Scrolls, Sol Forge, Might and Magic, and other TCGs (both digital and meat-space games) avoid the dreaded lawsuit is because they are mechanically and aesthetically different in a lot of major ways.

World of Warcraft, for example, has a class system rather than a color system. Resources can be any card or can be a type of card that doesn't exist in Magic. There are no resource restrictions, just card restrictions based on class. I can go on and on.

Scrolls has a completely unique game board, conditions for winning, turn order, etc. There is very little comparison between the two.

Sol Forge has a cards per turn limit rather than a resource system, a completely unique game board, and a bunch of other mechanics that don't exist in Magic. About the only thing they have in common is that they have creatures and spells.

Might and Magic has a completely unique game board, resource system, turn order, and card types that don't exist in Magic.

I think Wizards of the Coast has a lot of ground to stand on, and as much as I enjoy HEX (Collector tier, y'all!) I think that CZE has only themselves to blame for basically ripping off the majority of the mechanics and adding their own fluff on top of what already exists in Magic.

AdamAoE2
05-14-2014, 04:50 PM
The idea that they have gained 2 million dollars in revenue is absurd. Kickstarters are donations to see a project to completion. The asseration from wizards that the money would have gone to Wizards of the Coast instead is silly.

In reality, Wizards is more or less stealing from anyone who kickstarted the game.

Yoss
05-14-2014, 04:51 PM
I think that CZE has only themselves to blame for basically ripping off the majority of the mechanics and adding their own fluff on top of what already exists in Magic.

Inventing an entire new genre of game is just "adding fluff"?

Xexist
05-14-2014, 04:53 PM
DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, but I am a fan of and avid player of both Magic: The Gathering and HEX.

I think a lot of people here are letting their fandom of HEX cloud their judgment. Many people here and on other media have voiced their concerns about HEX being extremely similar to Magic: The Gathering. I would argue that there are more mechanical similarities than differences, and some of those differences are so small as to not even exist. You could copy the Magic comprehensive rules and have the vast majority of them apply to HEX minus some name differences here and there. This is a problem. There are also HEX cards that are carbon-copies of Magic cards. This is a massive problem. The game also looks and feels a lot like Magic. This is also a problem.

The reason that World of Warcraft TCG, Scrolls, Sol Forge, Might and Magic, and other TCGs (both digital and meat-space games) avoid the dreaded lawsuit is because they are mechanically and aesthetically different in a lot of major ways.

World of Warcraft, for example, has a class system rather than a color system. Resources can be any card or can be a type of card that doesn't exist in Magic. There are no resource restrictions, just card restrictions based on class. I can go on and on.

Scrolls has a completely unique game board, conditions for winning, turn order, etc. There is very little comparison between the two.

Sol Forge has a cards per turn limit rather than a resource system, a completely unique game board, and a bunch of other mechanics that don't exist in Magic. About the only thing they have in common is that they have creatures and spells.

Might and Magic has a completely unique game board, resource system, turn order, and card types that don't exist in Magic.

I think Wizards of the Coast has a lot of ground to stand on, and as much as I enjoy HEX (Collector tier, y'all!) I think that CZE has only themselves to blame for basically ripping off the majority of the mechanics and adding their own fluff on top of what already exists in Magic.

To be fair, have you ever played a first person shooter? There are probably a million of them to choose from, and they often have tons in common. Actually almost ANY genre of game, has tons of similarities with other games in the same genre. Also we havent even seen a large portion of the game yet, we have seen a small fraction of the content.

I understand where you are coming from, there are a lot of similarities. But right or wrong, its normal in this industry.

AswanJaguar
05-14-2014, 04:56 PM
While the resource systems are similiar, there are enough differences that it can be considered unique. Shards providing champion charges and the threshold system are unique to Hex.

Socketed cards.
Mandatory champions.
Permanent changes to cards.
Unique keywords (Inspire, Escalation, etc.)
Random effects using the entirety of the card set (Cosmic Transmogrifier, Ingenuity Engine, etc.)
Creating cards out of thin air.
Tokens going to the graveyard.

Sure there's similarities. The games do not play the same however, and that's what matters.

Badgered
05-14-2014, 04:57 PM
To be fair, have you ever played a first person shooter? There are probably a million of there, and they often have tons in common. Actually almost ANY genre of game, has tons of similarities with other games in the same genre. Also we haven't even seen a large portion of the game yet, we have seen a small fraction of the content.

I understand where you are coming from, there are a lot of similarities. But right or wrong, its normal in this industry.

Again, not a lawyer, but I don't know if you can apply what works for one genre to another, especially since MTG is a physical game and they are asserting that their mechanics have been copied and used in a digital space, which is true IMO.

That aside, the assertion is that HEX is using MTG's mechanics, whether they are used for PvE or PvP is largely irrelevant at this point. At least I didn't see that brought up in the suit.

stiii
05-14-2014, 04:57 PM
Oh, did you also see how they made a comment about the physical size of the cards? :)

Also it's interesting to note that one of our podcasters was outright mentioned in the lawsuit.

But seriously speaking, knowing how bad the copyright/patent system is in the US, this could be problematic imo.

It is awkward when the laws in China seem more fair.

Yoss
05-14-2014, 04:59 PM
That aside, the assertion is that HEX is using MTG's mechanics, whether they are used for PvE or PvP is largely irrelevant at this point. At least I didn't see that brought up in the suit.

Of course you don't see it from WotC. They want to only show that which favors themselves. It will be CZE that puts forth the rest of the story that WotC is hiding or twisting around. It will be interesting to see the official rebuttal from CZE Legal.

Badgered
05-14-2014, 05:00 PM
While the resource systems are similiar, there are enough differences that it can be considered unique. Shards providing champion charges and the threshold system are unique to Hex.

Socketed cards.
Mandatory champions.
Permanent changes to cards.
Unique keywords (Inspire, Escalation, etc.)
Random effects using the entirety of the card set (Cosmic Transmogrifier, Ingenuity Engine, etc.)
Creating cards out of thin air.
Tokens going to the graveyard.

Sure there's similarities. The games do not play the same however, and that's what matters.

They do play the same, though. HEX feels like an expansion set for MTG, with the difference being that some of the mechanics introduced could not be easily used or used at all in meat-space, such as some of the cards you listed. The core gameplay mechanics are still the same, though, and I think that's what WOTC is going after.

Xexist
05-14-2014, 05:01 PM
Of course you don't see it from WotC. They want to only show that which favors themselves. It will be CZE that puts forth the rest of the story that WotC is hiding or twisting around. It will be interesting to see the official rebuttal from CZE legal.

Hopefully it works in their favour that Wizards is being so 'deceptive? deceitful?' about the whole thing.

drproton
05-14-2014, 05:07 PM
As a video game, Hex is not more derivative than any number of games that borrowed heavily from their predecessors, but the video game market is not traditionally burdened with gameplay patents, thankfully.

MtG's patent is for a card/board game, so I don't think it's possible to strictly determine whether Hex will be found to infringe or not.

Gwaer
05-14-2014, 05:07 PM
They do play the same, though. HEX feels like an expansion set for MTG, with the difference being that some of the mechanics introduced could not be easily used or used at all in meat-space, such as some of the cards you listed. The core gameplay mechanics are still the same, though, and I think that's what WOTC is going after.

Luckily core gameplay mechanics are not and never have been subject to copyright. Genre of game makes no difference, take FPS, If ID could have a copyright on on the elements of its game like wotc is asserting here, you'd never have had great games like heretic, hexen, blood, duke nukem, strife... These games were all basically identical, but still quite different, each and every one of them should have existed.

Same goes for these arguments here. Hex builds on MTG no question. But it is a different experience. The threshold system by itself plays extremely differently than mtg's mana system. Many of these things you say couldn't have been easily done in physical games wouldn't work in different enough games to not fall under their extremely broad patent, which will almost certainly be invalidated in this lawsuit.

AswanJaguar
05-14-2014, 05:08 PM
with the difference being that some of the mechanics introduced could not be easily used or used at all in meat-space, such as some of the cards you listed.

Isn't that the whole point? How can you viable sue someone for doing something that you can't possibly do with your game mechanics? If we were to list all of the core gameplay mechanics that no other TCG is using and compared that to the list of things that are different from Magic, I'll bet you'll find that the second list is bigger.

KingxOfxThexVoid
05-14-2014, 05:08 PM
Just a childish lawsuit because they cant come up with good idea's themselves I am kind of dissapointed in them
On a sidenote the money I spend on hex would never end up in magic the gathering
So thats 300$ less to claim ;)

b1uepenguin
05-14-2014, 05:13 PM
MtG has been suing people since the 90's (or the owners of the patent/copyrights have been) lots of games and companies have had to settle or pay a licensing fee. I seem to remember a number of them coming at the end of the 90s and there being some fear that MtG was intent on crushing the burgeoning TCG market at the time.

If you search around the net I'm sure you can find some of the records and see how things have gone. Otherwise the following threat from Board Game Geek was pretty informative a couple years ago about the issue and is still relevant today.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/735348/how-can-you-publish-a-tgc-without-being-sued-or-pa

brightshadow
05-14-2014, 05:14 PM
I don't think Hasbro has a leg to stand on, but I'm sure they have lawyers on staff and have been prepping to try and demand royalties or some crap for a while just in case the game didn't fizzle.

ESPECIALLY since WotC has done the most impressively foul hackjob of their "new" beta client.. they've had HOW many years to get it right now? And it still sucks. And people complain. And they don't fix the things that people complain about. And the complainers go back to the old ugly but very functional client that everyone likes.

Me? Quit buying M:TG paper cards after Theros, though I've got a half a closet full of cards still. MTGO was just a stupid additional money sink; having to pay twice for the same cards is just asinine anyway.

Hasbro/WotC will sue anything that moves that looks like they might be threatening their income. They tried to shut down Cockatrice for letting people theorycraft and play without spending thousands of dollars on imaginary cards, even though they weren't hurting anyone and certainly weren't preventing Wizards from making money hand over fist -- if anything they let penniless players learn the game well enough to compete and go buy cards and participate in events which then move their products.

Blah.

Anyway, they'll lose. Hex is not a copy, even if some core mechanics are similar. WotC, in the eleventy thousand PC/console games they've tried out, has yet to make anything remotely as interesting, and they've tried over and over and over. :p

syphonhail
05-14-2014, 05:15 PM
Can I just note that it's all threshold's fault for making that blog post?

Noted, now to become a sole listener of 2turnsahead; the podcast that didn't get Hex sued.

;)

TheNeoReaper
05-14-2014, 05:19 PM
Thank god MTG is stepping in & trying to protect what was clearly stolen.
1821

rcl
05-14-2014, 05:20 PM
Hex is a disappointingly close copy of MTG. I am not surprised. Hope cryptozoic works it out. Other TCGs are quite different (hearthstone, sol forge, etc) so there's really not much excuse. Why would you make a game so close to mtg when you know their lawyers are no joke

Xexist
05-14-2014, 05:24 PM
Thank god MTG is stepping in & trying to protect what was clearly stolen.
1821

Trollol

DarkSeverance
05-14-2014, 05:35 PM
Until this settles I could see this hurting Hex's income... whos going to want to sink money into a game that could be voided from play?Not really an issue. If it was a physical product I could see it hurting. Since it is digital, let us assume worse case and they lose. It wouldn't be for copyright, it would be for patent infringement but because of the nature of the game. They could change a few things around and still be back in business without skipping a beat.

mudkip
05-14-2014, 05:40 PM
Even though the claim is stupid, I expect this to settle out of court.

fido_one
05-14-2014, 05:42 PM
I am most keen to hear from CZE, even if it's a statement saying 'a statement is coming.'

cavench
05-14-2014, 05:43 PM
Even though the claim is stupid, I expect this to settle out of court.

CZE says to Hasbros "Look! How about we promise that 3 years from now we won't buy Hasbros and then fire everyone."

Thrawn
05-14-2014, 05:47 PM
I am most keen to hear from CZE, even if it's a statement saying 'a statement is coming.'

I would fully expect them to tell us nothing from start to finish except for maybe a "Don't worry about it." when it's all said and done.

Dynimix
05-14-2014, 05:49 PM
I am sure a statement is coming. We need to let them gather the necessaries on this one. Obviously they have been dealing with Hasbro and WotC for a little while and now it has heated up.

jimmywolf
05-14-2014, 05:52 PM
shame either way i like too check for update info on next big patch not X company want $$$ so their suing HEX....

negativeZer0
05-14-2014, 05:54 PM
1823
We should buy copies of this and put the shiping address as:
1600 Lind Avenue Southwest, Suite 400, Renton, Washington 98057


Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

Buy HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Patents-Copyrights-Trademarks-For-Dummies/dp/0470339454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400115574&sr=8-1&keywords=dummies+patent) or HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Patents-Registered-Designs-Copyright-Dummies/dp/0470519975/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1400115574&sr=8-3)

maniza
05-14-2014, 05:55 PM
if they had made a decent client and charged a reasonable price for their game we would not have to go and play aonther similar game. but it goes further than that. we all feel like we are making this game. we are helping it become what we wanted mtgo to be. and the answer from wizards is to try to destroy it. so the lawsuit feels much more personal.

fuck it if i have to go and suport hex again because they run out of money due to the lawsuit i will do it. if they need to make another kickstarter to actualy finish the game i will back it. i want this game to become what it set out to become because there is nothing like it on the market.

shure hex is similar to mgt in some aspects, and draws inspiration from mtg in alot of those aspects. but i didnt know wotc had the monopoly in digital tcgs. you cant just sue a game for its similarities to another game. if you could the game industry would not exist. every videogame copies aspects from another videogame, borrows mecanics, art styles and so on.

clearly hex is not a magic clone. its a similar game. a clone is what some chinese developer did to hs. interface is not even that similar to the one they claimed i asked my mom and she said that other than the fact that they were both card games, they looked diferent.

bottom line is you cant have a game for having a life bar, or a cover sistem or similar mecanics. and you cant sue hex for that reason ether. but the fact that they did makes me regret every cent i ever spent on magic.

hashinshin
05-14-2014, 06:00 PM
Hex is a disappointingly close copy of MTG. I am not surprised. Hope cryptozoic works it out. Other TCGs are quite different (hearthstone, sol forge, etc) so there's really not much excuse. Why would you make a game so close to mtg when you know their lawyers are no joke
Unfortunately I have to agree. This game is INCREDIBLY similar to MTG. I really can see a case being made here quite easily.

Novataglio
05-14-2014, 06:01 PM
I'd lie if I said I wasn't concerned. I dropped a significant chunk of change on Hex. Money I would NOT have spent on MTG but that is beside the point. If they either win or lose enough money that they can't go on that would be quite the hit to the pocket book without ever really enjoying the full product. Perhaps a lesson to be learned in backing things on Kickstarter.

Sergan
05-14-2014, 06:04 PM
1823
We should buy copies of this and put the shiping address as:
1600 Lind Avenue Southwest, Suite 400, Renton, Washington 98057



Buy HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Patents-Copyrights-Trademarks-For-Dummies/dp/0470339454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400115574&sr=8-1&keywords=dummies+patent) or HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Patents-Registered-Designs-Copyright-Dummies/dp/0470519975/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1400115574&sr=8-3)

that is weird.. the statement is very clear and for sure hasbro's lawyers know it..

negativeZer0
05-14-2014, 06:05 PM
Unfortunately I have to agree. This game is INCREDIBLY similar to MTG. I really can see a case being made here quite easily.

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

It doesn't matter if the game plays identically and uses the exact same mechanics (and Hex isnt an exact copy) so long as the art and literary assets are all new and they are.

cferejohn
05-14-2014, 06:08 PM
It's pretty clear they don't have a copyright case. Patent is less clear, and US patent law is, well, kind of broken, so I'm at least a bit nervous.

Bells
05-14-2014, 06:09 PM
Considering that we constantly see people around saying how they came to Hex FROM MTG Online... i can't deny that the timing is impeccable.

Also, Hex has enough unique features... that will be more evidence when PVE shows up though...

MatWith1T
05-14-2014, 06:12 PM
I don't want to make up my mind until I know what Omar Epps thinks about this.

fido_one
05-14-2014, 06:13 PM
It's pretty clear they don't have a copyright case. Patent is less clear, and US patent law is, well, kind of broken, so I'm at least a bit nervous.

Well, if the patent times out in Sept., and Hex is very clearly still in development and is just being 'tested', I am assuming that it's not complete yet will be leverage for CZE?

On all sides they are attacking (copyright/patent/trade dress), how can one sue for a product that isn't done yet?

Also, what the hell is trade dress?

Kramer
05-14-2014, 06:20 PM
Everybody is comparing this game to MtG because of this thread but the whole concept of a Digital Card Game/MMO combo is closest to Clash of the Dragons. I liked Clash of the Dragons for awhile but I chose to back this game because I felt CZE would do what 5th Games who designed Clash of the Dragons couldn't. This is my opinion and the reason I was a Kickstarter Backer. My money would have never gone to Magic the Gathering. It might have gone to Solforge or Duel of Champions (so Hasbro should sue those companies for my Kickstarter Money) but NEVER Hasbro's Magic the Gathering or any other Hasbro product for that matter. So now I along with the rest of my friends and family, will never buy or support a Hasbro product again.

Bells
05-14-2014, 06:20 PM
The whole point is that WoTC knows that Hex is indie, and forcing them into a legal battle with Hasbro will force them to put out money they did not want to use for this, to protect the game. For Hasbro that amount is not going to hurt Magic, but for Hex, it might... by Forcing Crypt to defend Hex, WoTC is forcing crypt to hurt the game's funding, which they hope will sink it as it has been getting momentum since the start...

Oroniss
05-14-2014, 06:21 PM
Yeah, it's a total dick move to be honest. They screwed up their own game, with an underdeveloped, overpriced, mediocre client, and now they realise they dropped the ball so try and sue their competitor rather than getting their own act together.

They hadn't lost any money from me due to Hex, since I wouldn't have bought the last few Mtg sets anyway. They have lost money from me now, however the issue with Hex plays out.

Hope it doesn't take too much attention and resources away from actually making Hex. Once PvE and things are in, Hasbro's claim will look a lot shakier since there will be so many more points of difference between the games. Not that I think they are actually that similar now, but sadly I suspect the point of the lawsuit wasn't to win, but to try and hurt a competitor with legal costs and hopefully force them out of the space.

rcl
05-14-2014, 06:29 PM
Everybody is comparing this game to MtG because of this thread but the whole concept of a Digital Card Game/MMO combo is closest to Clash of the Dragons. I liked Clash of the Dragons for awhile but I chose to back this game because I felt CZE would do what 5th Games who designed Clash of the Dragons couldn't. This is my opinion and the reason I was a Kickstarter Backer. My money would have never gone to Magic the Gathering. It might have gone to Solforge or Duel of Champions (so Hasbro should sue those companies for my Kickstarter Money) but NEVER Hasbro's Magic the Gathering or any other Hasbro product for that matter. So now I along with the rest of my friends and family, will never buy or support a Hasbro product again.

Why? Mtg is insanely good and are releasing great products every 3 months with an insane amount of backed organized play. I can go to a sanctioned event 6 nights of the week here, most nights with the choice between 2-5 venues. With cards that hold their value. What's not to love

FreyOrvar
05-14-2014, 06:29 PM
Funny thing to me, at some point in some 70-year-old judge's chamber some law clerk is going to set up two laptops side by side and some grey haired judge is going to be playing MTGO and HEX. lol

Shortly thereafter he will complain of mana screw....

wurtil
05-14-2014, 06:31 PM
Pray he then complains of shard screw...

IndigoShade
05-14-2014, 06:35 PM
Pray he then complains of shard screw...

Pray he gets mana screwed but hits all his shards and says "These 2 games are nothing alike!"

Freebird_Falcon
05-14-2014, 06:41 PM
I don't want to make up my mind until I know what Omar Epps thinks about this.

hahaha so random and unexpected it got an abrupt laugh.

as far as the complaint goes...


"Untap cards at the beginning of each card"
lulz

Several of the elements they list as being "unacceptable" are generic actions that many other card games feature. Including other released competitors. There are also several technical errors either in the comparisons or the wording, which is important. (Such as the previously mentioned Bushido = Rage or Hasbro calling Blood "black" instead of "purple")


38... hahah

44. The trade dress argument is thin considering card layout is nearly identical across tcgs. Threshold display and gems are unique and card presentation does not match MTG's unique presentation (such as small grey circled numbers for colorless costs)

I don't think CZE even needs to have PVE in game to use that as a counter argument. If they can show the court there has been significant development with intent to implement before release version, that will likely be sufficient.

and like someone said earlier: random internet quotes to substantiate an infringement case. The thing here is that they can try and argue that this represents public perception and that the games are indistinguishable. We might think they are easily distinguishable but often these decision are made by non-gamers.

The biggest danger is a judge being convinced to issue a temporary injunction until trial.

Svenn
05-14-2014, 06:44 PM
The biggest danger is a judge being convinced to issue a temporary injunction until trial.

This is what worries me. If they have to stop all development and shut down the servers until after this is dealt with... that's a huge blow.

Daer
05-14-2014, 06:48 PM
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1172032/wizardshasbro-is-suing-cryptozoic-over-hex-their-u

A lot of "I read the court document, of course the game is a 100% copy of MTG"

Kami
05-14-2014, 07:02 PM
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1172032/wizardshasbro-is-suing-cryptozoic-over-hex-their-u

A lot of "I read the court document, of course the game is a 100% copy of MTG"

Similar comments here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=819064

Basically, a lot of the people claiming HEX is a copy/clone are looking at it from an outside-in perspective. People who have played HEX can say that it has definite similarities but it plays quite differently with certain mechanics (Threshold, Pack Raptors, Buccaneer, Ascetic Aspirant... to list a few). The art style, lore, and more are all different as well.

You know why I backed this game? Because it's not Magic. If I wanted to play Magic, I would play Magic. Full stop.

knightofeffect
05-14-2014, 07:02 PM
So the change to "Hex Entertainment, LLC" makes more sense now as does the move to monetized beta ASAP. It would be harder for a judge to deliver an injunction when the company can claim that it would suffer real damages from such a motion. I had a feeling there was more to it than met the eye.

...Things are starting to make sense.

Ashenai
05-14-2014, 07:07 PM
Similar comments here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=819064

Basically, a lot of the people claiming HEX is a copy/clone are looking at it from an outside-in perspective. People who have played HEX can say that it has definite similarities but it plays quite differently with certain mechanics (Threshold, Pack Raptors, Buccaneer, Ascetic Aspirant... to list a few). The art style, lore, and more are all different as well.

You know why I backed this game? Because it's not Magic. If I wanted to play Magic, I would play Magic. Full stop.

I have not played this game, but I watched the "How to play Hex" tutorial on YouTube.

It is almost literally a "How to Play Magic" tutorial, except some of the words are slightly different (but mean the exact same thing.) I can show someone the Hex tutorial, and if they watch it, they will know how to play Magic.

Svenn
05-14-2014, 07:08 PM
I have not played this game, but I watched the "How to play Hex" tutorial on YouTube.

It is almost literally a "How to Play Magic" tutorial, except some of the words are slightly different (but mean the exact same thing.) I can show someone the Hex tutorial, and if they watch it, they will know how to play Magic.
Except for, you know, things like how resources (one of the huge basic features of the game) work. Or Champions/charge powers.

ThomasHunter
05-14-2014, 07:08 PM
Socketed cards.
Mandatory champions.
Permanent changes to cards.
Unique keywords (Inspire, Escalation, etc.)
Random effects using the entirety of the card set (Cosmic Transmogrifier, Ingenuity Engine, etc.)
Creating cards out of thin air.
Tokens going to the graveyard.


I also think a major difference is that the cards actually "live" and "grow" and "advance". Granted, we haven't seen that part go-live yet, but wow, that seems like a HUGE difference to me!

So, there are similarities on the front of the card, but aesthetically speaking, there are probably some limiting factors there. You still want legibility and such. But, we have a back of the card, and a double-back! :)

brightshadow
05-14-2014, 07:09 PM
Why? Mtg is insanely good and are releasing great products every 3 months with an insane amount of backed organized play. I can go to a sanctioned event 6 nights of the week here, most nights with the choice between 2-5 venues. With cards that hold their value. What's not to love

Haaaaaaave you met mtgo? I hear they have a wonderful new beta client... :cool: Just ask Kibler!

Gwaer
05-14-2014, 07:10 PM
*shrug* from knowing the magic rules I can play pretty much any tcg, and have just picked up quite a few of them on the back of that knowledge. There are actually quite a few differences that are much more than just different words. Like the inability for some of my magic friends to grasp how the resource system works at all...

Bells
05-14-2014, 07:11 PM
whole bunch of people with 1 posts coming here just to troll ''no yeah totally the same game'' today....

maniza
05-14-2014, 07:11 PM
Similar comments here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=819064

Basically, a lot of the people claiming HEX is a copy/clone are looking at it from an outside-in perspective. People who have played HEX can say that it has definite similarities but it plays quite differently with certain mechanics (Threshold, Pack Raptors, Buccaneer, Ascetic Aspirant... to list a few). The art style, lore, and more are all different as well.

You know why I backed this game? Because it's not Magic. If I wanted to play Magic, I would play Magic. Full stop.

most of the posts are likely from magic players. to a magic player who has not played hex it can look quite like a clone. to a person that isent familiar with any of both bames much less so.

brightshadow
05-14-2014, 07:12 PM
Similar comments here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=819064

You know why I backed this game? Because it's not Magic. If I wanted to play Magic, I would play Magic. Full stop.

This.

Ashenai
05-14-2014, 07:16 PM
whole bunch of people with 1 posts coming here just to troll ''no yeah totally the same game'' today....
I'm not trolling, I'm just giving my opinion. I've been a Magic player for around 10 years now, and I'm a fan of a lot of other CCGs as well (Hearthstone, SolForge, Netrunner.) I'd have tried Hex as well, if it wasn't in closed beta.

I think Hex is similar to Magic in a very obvious and profound way. I don't know of any two other card games that are as similar to each other. The similarities are huge, and they are everywhere. You could theoretically put any Magic card into your Hex deck (doing the obvious translations: the fact that I don't even have to mention how to translate a Magic card into a Hex card kind of illustrates my point) and it would work without a hitch. You couldn't do that with SolForge or Hearthstone. Try putting a Netrunner card into your Magic deck, see where that gets you.

I'm sorry if this seems like trolling to you, but it's my honest opinion. I haven't posted on here before, because I saw little point in signing up to the forum of a game I can't play. But this lawsuit grabbed my interest.

KiloGold
05-14-2014, 07:17 PM
I hope this backfires on them, but this is in the same country where companies like Apple can sue the competition out of desperation.

Fateanomaly
05-14-2014, 07:17 PM
Wotc just want to put a financial burden to crush CZE before it gets successful. Win or lose doesn't really matter as long as the financial strain on CZE makes them unable to continue with the game.

Freebird_Falcon
05-14-2014, 07:19 PM
So the change to "Hex Entertainment, LLC" makes more sense now as does the move to monetized beta ASAP. It would be harder for a judge to deliver an injunction when the company can claim that it would suffer real damages from such a motion.

Err, not really; it's the opposite. The merit of the case as the judge sees it is what dictates whether a preliminary injunction is issued. If the judge believes Hasbro is likely to win, he will issue an injunction to prevent further damages.

Lukezors
05-14-2014, 07:21 PM
I'm surprised at the amount of people just brushing this off. The mechanics are very similar and I am worried about my kick starter investment.

FlyingMeatchip
05-14-2014, 07:22 PM
I feel really bad for Matt, having his post used point by point against us.

I feel using our private posts in our private forums is a violation as well.

Stok3d
05-14-2014, 07:23 PM
In my personal opinion, if Cryptozoic had any worry what-so-ever, then why did they monetize before the Patents expired in September? Makes absolutely ZERO sense.

Xexist
05-14-2014, 07:26 PM
I'm surprised at the amount of people just brushing this off. The mechanics are very similar and I am worried about my kick starter investment.

Well not much we can do other than wait and see how it plays out. Will they win or lose, I have no idea. They don't *deserve* to win, I believe that 100%. Despite their similarities HEX is like MTG's cooler younger brother and MTG is just jealous and lashing out.

Perfectblue
05-14-2014, 07:27 PM
In my personal opinion, if Cryptozoic had any worry what-so-ever, then why did they monetize before the Patents expired in September? Makes absolutely ZERO sense.

As nerve-wracking as this may be, it would be foolish to think Cryptozoic did not already seek legal council and advice regarding this very matter before even beginning development on Hex.

Bells
05-14-2014, 07:27 PM
specially if they already knew WoTC was watching HEX with this intent...

which just goes one step ahead with wht i was saying earlier that this seems like Wizards trying to force Hex's hands... forcing them to push out PVE content they don't have, in order to further differentiate Hex (putting incomplete content out could sour the company with it's players) or forcing Hex to bleed money from a lawsuit, which would also hurt development.

Seems like Wizards is tryin to make Hex to leave it's lawn...

Bur for anyone that has FOLLOWED the development of Hex, it is clear that the games come from the same root but Hex has a large, clear cut, set of unique ideas and concepts that Wizards don't and can't own.

Aradon
05-14-2014, 07:32 PM
For any forumers new to Hex, the grounds for CZE to produce this game despite its similarities to MtG are that CZE is innovating on the design space and genre in ways WoTC can't or won't. Since the mechanics are free domain, they have the right to improve on a product. Despite superficial and also substantial similarities, the games will look completely different a year from now. Already, gameplay is going places that MtG can't, and this is before Hex can even be called an MMOTCG, which was the whole basis. The current PvP iteration is merely a balanced facet for competitive play of a much grander design. In its full iteration, Hex will be like MtG in process only, with much more content and context added to justify the imitation.

Despite the initial appearance, Hex isn't just a second-rate clone, it has its own design and innovation backing it up. We're just still in beta :)

Fateanomaly
05-14-2014, 07:50 PM
The problem is with no pve elements atm, most people who just see the pvp will think that it is a clone.

Quasari
05-14-2014, 07:52 PM
Let's see how we can describe Hex as Different.


Champions - Each has a unique charge power
Resources - Don't stay in play, give threshold, charge, and colorless resources
Threshold - If you have used 1 red source and 5 blue, you can still cast 6 red 1 cost spells.
Effects without a target are not on the stack and are resolved simultaneously.
Crush != Trample - Prevention and Substitution can be applied. Flock of Seagulls blocks all Crush damage even though it only has 1 toughness, in magic this would cause the rest of the damage to still hit the other player
Invincible != Indestructible - Invincible troops take no damage
Rage != Bushido - Bushido only happens when blocking/being blocked and is a temporary buff, Rage happens every time a troop attacks and is a permanent buff to it's attack
Permanent Buffs - Many abilities that buff/debuff cards are permanent and last through all zones. This includes modifying attack/toughness and adding text to cards.
Transformation - Cards can be transformed into other cards any number of times. Polymorph: Dingler transforms troops into a 0/1 troop, while Hop'hiro can transform twice into improved versions by sacrificing troops.
Card Creations - Like tokens, however these can be in all zones, including your deck. A few popular cards create copies that get shuffled into your deck.
Escalation: Cards that once played increase the effectiveness of the next time a same named card is played. Ragefire deals 2 damage the first time, 4 the second, 6 the third, etc...
Inspire: Gives permanent buffs to troops that cost more than the card with the keyword.
Cards having powers resolve in areas outside of play - Infernal Professor makes a card if still in your hand deal 2 damage to you.
Setting: Single planet with a magic comet that smashed through it and is now orbiting the world. Two factions similar to most MMOs. Races include standard fantasy flair along with Orc/Spiders, Feudal Bunnies, and Coyote people.


There are more, I'm just having trouble thinking. Let's add to the list and post it on any forums that are claiming it's a direct clone of Magic. I'm not denying that the game isn't heavily influenced by it, but even it's current incarnation plays quite differently within the same basic rules. It's like LoL vs Dota. They are basically the same game, but play quite differently.

Xexist
05-14-2014, 07:54 PM
The problem is with no pve elements atm, most people who just see the pvp will think that it is a clone.

Visually it DOES look really close. There is only so many ways you can digitally represent a card... The differences (which are vast) are in the rules unique to hex.

nick7575
05-14-2014, 07:55 PM
It will be interesting to see what CZE has to say on this issue, when they release their formal statement. Wizards will not get a cent of my money again.

Revoluketion
05-14-2014, 07:56 PM
Yeah, like I was going to pay them another cent. Self entitled assholes. I was never going to give them another cent, with or without Hex.
Wow did they really think I would have spent my money on their product instead? That is obscene..I backed hex because of my excitement of what they are bringing..not the dull same thing magic has brought.

Aradon
05-14-2014, 07:57 PM
There are more, I'm just having trouble thinking. Let's add to the list and post it on any forums that are claiming it's a direct clone of Magic.

Let's not, it's not our job to go and correct other forums. Beyond that, most forums have a few people pointing out the differences. What would really make a difference is people explaining the right to innovate on game design, even when you borrow large amounts of underlining mechanics. Hex is bringing MtG to a digital space in a way Wizards hasn't, so they're clear to do so. Posting lists like that is just going to provoke arguments and flame wars, and we don't want the Hex community to be known as 'those guys who show up and raid our boards.' That's how I see it, at least. There seems to be a lot of inter-board posting and hopping, from what I can tell, so the issue's obviously catching a lot of interest, but if people flood this or that board or cross-post a lot, it'll get noticed, and not in a good way. I'd rather just see Hex players joining in conversations in context-appropriate and natural ways, not 'showing up just to defend their game' as I'm starting to see right now.

Jaunt
05-14-2014, 08:01 PM
Haven't touched Hex since the alpha, but saw this and am quietly contemplating whether or not to weep. Not because I dumped a zillion dollars into the KS, just 'cause I want to play an even semi-decent CCG with PvE and RPG elements. On a computer? Even better.

Anyway, I'm seeing a lot of "Hex does more, better" remarks. Unfortunately that's not a defense against any of the claims so far as I am aware. For patents, if I invent a way to make a longlasting jetpack, and sell it, and you sell a jetpack using the same mechanics, but add a cupholder and anti-cancer coating, you're still infringing my patent. As far as trade dress, if you sell cola and I sell wombat urine, but I make my can look almost identical to yours...still liable. For copyright, you can fill in your own colorful analogy.

I'm not suggesting WotC is swimming in merit here, but if they do have any, "but PvE!" won't win any points.

Disclaimer: I'm totally not a lawyer. Not even a little.

Quasari
05-14-2014, 08:01 PM
Let's not, it's not our job to go and correct other forums. Beyond that, most forums have a few people pointing out the differences. What would really make a difference is people explaining the right to innovate on game design, even when you borrow large amounts of underlining mechanics. Hex is bringing MtG to a digital space in a way Wizards hasn't, so they're clear to do so. Posting lists like that is just going to provoke arguments and flame wars, and we don't want the Hex community to be known as 'those guys who show up and raid our boards.' That's how I see it, at least. There seems to be a lot of inter-board posting and hopping, from what I can tell, so the issue's obviously catching a lot of interest, but if people flood this or that board or cross-post a lot, it'll get noticed, and not in a good way. I'd rather just see Hex players joining in conversations in context-appropriate and natural ways, not 'showing up just to defend their game' as I'm starting to see right now.

I may have worded that wrongly. I don't mean go to a board you never post on and post this stuff. It's just nice to have a list of differences handy when people you normally talk to say "oh hey I read the complaint, they're right it's just like magic!" The complaint is basically a list of what's similar, why not have a counter list.

MatWith1T
05-14-2014, 08:02 PM
This won't be settled for some time... it's the nature of lawsuits. It's news today for mtg sites and in a week they won't care. Just enjoy hex, there's still a year's worth of discovery and deposition before the trial even starts (coincidentally right around the time MtG's patent expires)

maniza
05-14-2014, 08:04 PM
I think Hex is similar to Magic in a very obvious and profound way. I don't know of any two other card games that are as similar to each other. The similarities are huge, and they are everywhere. You could theoretically put any Magic card into your Hex deck (doing the obvious translations: the fact that I don't even have to mention how to translate a Magic card into a Hex card kind of illustrates my point) and it would work without a hitch. You couldn't do that with SolForge or Hearthstone. Try putting a Netrunner card into your Magic deck, see where that gets you.


see hearthstone and shadow era

nicosharp
05-14-2014, 08:16 PM
All I know is I quit playing magic long before I found out about Hex. They are a lazy company that refuse to adapt to the times. Their price point is too high, and they Prostitute their game out on streams in the media, and in lesser online "planeswalker" no talent games to further hype their card game.

MTG:O is the laziest attempt at a digital representation of their game. Not to mention is something players quickly can not afford. There is a reason why their card game still has a niche following, and most players rarely stick around past the promotional release weeks. Only to come back again when they find money and new sets have promotional releases.

I am not going to sit here and say Hex is a completely different game, because thats just a flat out lie when it comes to gameplay mechanics and PvP. What Hex is though, is a necessary progression in the trading card genre that breaksout to a wider audience.

Comparing Hex to Magic, is akin to comparing DOTA to League of Legends. Same playmat, same gameplay, different pieces, different strategy.

Aradon
05-14-2014, 08:17 PM
I may have worded that wrongly. I don't mean go to a board you never post on and post this stuff. It's just nice to have a list of differences handy when people you normally talk to say "oh hey I read the complaint, they're right it's just like magic!" The complaint is basically a list of what's similar, why not have a counter list.

I misunderstood, then. Sorry if my post seemed a bit blunt.

Quasari
05-14-2014, 08:19 PM
I misunderstood, then. Sorry if my post seemed a bit blunt.

It's ok, I typed that out hastily and came off like "INVADE!"

Btw, to add to the topic, I love that they used old versions of cards in their complaint

Oroniss
05-14-2014, 08:20 PM
Yeah, if it drags on for a while, Hasbro may end up regretting pointing out to the world just how much better Hex is than MTGO.

That'd be kinda ironic.

Miyordon
05-14-2014, 08:22 PM
"Simpsons did it!"

zadies
05-14-2014, 08:24 PM
I now cannot buy DND next it makes me sad.

Oroniss
05-14-2014, 08:27 PM
Yeah, it'll be the first ever edition of dnd I don't purchase. It's a bit sad.

Then I remembered that Pathfinder is heaps better anyway, so I got over it. (Yet another place Wizards totally dropped the ball).

Edit: prior to this I would still have bought Next, just for nostalgia/tradition and on the off chance they actually made a decent game. Not happening now though.

koobiak
05-14-2014, 08:31 PM
I think an interesting legal argument could read something like this:

As WotC has already stated, people interested in the idea for our game paid more than $2MM on CZE's promise to build Hex. If Hex was truly no different from Magic the Gathering, why would people vote that forcefully with their pocketbooks that they wanted it built?

If, as WotC claims, they were materially and financially harmed by this, it is reasonable to assume that this base of backers were intimately aware of Magic the Gathering and were still willing to spend these monies.

Why would they do this if they thought that the same game was being built?

I propose that Hex would need to be sufficiently different to drive this much success.

Kami
05-14-2014, 08:36 PM
I think an interesting legal argument could read something like this:

As WotC has already stated, people interested in the idea for our game paid more than $2MM on CZE's promise to build Hex. If Hex was truly no different from Magic the Gathering, why would people vote that forcefully with their pocketbooks that they wanted it built?

If, as WotC claims, they were materially and financially harmed by this, it is reasonable to assume that this base of backers were intimately aware of Magic the Gathering and were still willing to spend these monies.

Why would they do this if they thought that the same game was being built?

I propose that Hex would need to be sufficiently different to drive this much success.

The problem is that it would be a non-argument.

The lawsuit is stating: "HEX copied Magic, here is proof of what is copied."

They have to prove they didn't copy X, not that they innovated despite copying X.

The court ruling will come down to two things, imo:

1. Was HEX copying Magic?
2. What aspects of copying are deemed to hold up as infringement?

At least, that's what I see when looking at it logically. And again, I'm not a lawyer.

koobiak
05-14-2014, 08:39 PM
The problem is that it would be a non-argument.

The lawsuit is stating: "HEX copied Magic, here is proof of what is copied."

They have to prove they didn't copy X, not that they innovated despite copying X.

The court ruling will come down to two things, imo:

1. Was HEX copying Magic?
2. What aspects of copying are deemed to hold up as infringement?

At least, that's what I see when looking at it logically. And again, I'm not a lawyer.

I think you are right, but I think my post is an interesting way to push back against your number 1 point.

No, Hex is not copying Magic. As proof, we offer the fact that backers put up more than $2MM of their own money on the promise of building something better (and different) from the existing offering. Would you have backed a project to rebuild Magic when Magic already existed?

koobiak
05-14-2014, 08:40 PM
I think you are right, but I think my post is an interesting way to push back against your number 1 point.

No, Hex is not copying Magic. As proof, we offer the fact that backers put up more than $2MM of their own money on the promise of building something better (and different) from the existing offering. Would you have backed a project to rebuild Magic when Magic already existed?

At the least, I might use this kind of language in my PR releases as CZE.

mach
05-14-2014, 08:43 PM
I think you are right, but I think my post is an interesting way to push back against your number 1 point.

No, Hex is not copying Magic. As proof, we offer the fact that backers put up more than $2MM of their own money on the promise of building something better (and different) from the existing offering. Would you have backed a project to rebuild Magic when Magic already existed?

There are many reasons people would, such as cost. For example, if it were legal I'm sure many people would back a project to make Rolex clones at 50% of the price.

syphonhail
05-14-2014, 08:48 PM
There are many reasons people would, such as cost. For example, if it were legal I'm sure many people would back a project to make Rolex clones at 50% of the price.

Battery Park, here I come.

GatticusFinch
05-14-2014, 08:52 PM
Well, I am a lawyer. I read the complaint. Everyone just brushing this off as no big deal has no idea what they are talking about, not surprisingly.

This is not Hasbro just fucking around. They have cognizable legal claims in here that could easily get past motions to dismiss or summary judgment, and then you're talking a few years of litigation. Hell, the trade dress complaints about the game interface alone could reach the SCOTUS because that is still an unsettled area of the law. If they got a preliminary injunction to shut the game down, you can basically stick a fork in Hex as you know it.

ronwac
05-14-2014, 08:52 PM
Has there been anything said from Cryptos end regarding the lawsuit? Also I looked on WotC career opportunities and an Advanced Designer position for MTGO pop up around the same time Kibler put up his review of the MTGO Beta being rather poor. Hope Hex can whether the storm :)

koobiak
05-14-2014, 08:54 PM
At the risk of taking an analogy too far - would you really back a company wanting to make a Rolex clone for 50% of the cost of a Rolex? In order for the watch to retain any value, it would need to be such a perfect copy that experts could not tell the difference (not the case with Hex / MTG). I don't think you could get many people to take you up on the watch offer.

At 1% of the cost. . .maybe.

I am not a lawyer, but I do work in content licensing as my daily job. Content infringement has to be similar enough to cause confusion to be a violation. Do you think anyone thinks that Hex is a part of MTG?

My thought is this. WotC is worried. They know that Hex is at its most vulnerable point right now. If money starts rolling in, they will have the funds to fight a frivolous lawsuit, but if they get all of us concerned that Hex will disappear, we are less likely to throw more money at the game. This is the smart time to file a lawsuit even if you know you cannot win in court. It is also the time that you could most likely get serious concession from CZE - maybe in the form of a % of all HEX revenues for example.

I also deal with these kinds of lawsuits all the time at work. It sucks.

Fateanomaly
05-14-2014, 08:56 PM
People buy Rolex for the brand name. Selling a rolex clone at 1/2 the price will just be call a fake.

Quasari
05-14-2014, 09:02 PM
The first cause of action is stating by making the game similar it violated Wizards copyright. This will probably be thrown out...copyright doesn't cover this.

The second cause of action is about the game playing the same and the cards looking similar violate their trade dress. The card part is phooey, but I doubt they can argue that mechanics = overall image.

The third cause of action is the patent stuff. Their 1997 patent basically covers all tcgs, while their 2003 patent covers any digital version. Unfortunately the 2003 patent has prior use that can be shown to invalidate it(Sanctum and Chron X both developed in 1997). Honestly the only thing to worry about is the 1997 patent and it hasn't been proven in court yet either and that expires in September(sorry, I originally thought it expired earlier>.<).

Not a lawyer, but I don't think they have a case on Copyright or Trade Dress, just patent law. Patent laws crazy, so I really don't know.

mach
05-14-2014, 09:05 PM
At the risk of taking an analogy too far - would you really back a company wanting to make a Rolex clone for 50% of the cost of a Rolex? In order for the watch to retain any value, it would need to be such a perfect copy that experts could not tell the difference (not the case with Hex / MTG). I don't think you could get many people to take you up on the watch offer.


Yea, I think you're taking the analogy too far.

The question was why anyone would back Hex if it were just the same game as MTG. My answer is that people would be willing to back what's essentially the same game if it were half the cost. So the fact that lots of people backed does not itself prove that Hex is a significantly different game.

Svenn
05-14-2014, 09:08 PM
Honestly the only thing to worry about is the 1997 patent and it hasn't been proven in court yet either and that expires in September(sorry, I originally thought it expired earlier>.<).

I'm a bit confused no that. I can't figure out what the length on a patent is supposed to be. Design Patents look like they are 14 years, though I'm not fully sure what constitutes a "design patent" exactly, and that would have expired in 2011. Other patents are 17-20 years, so I guess that would be September of this year for the expiration... or September 2017. In the patent info I saw online I couldn't find an expiration date listed anywhere.

Quasari
05-14-2014, 09:12 PM
I'm a bit confused no that. I can't figure out what the length on a patent is supposed to be. Design Patents look like they are 14 years, though I'm not fully sure what constitutes a "design patent" exactly, and that would have expired in 2011. Other patents are 17-20 years, so I guess that would be September of this year for the expiration... or September 2017. In the patent info I saw online I couldn't find an expiration date listed anywhere.

I don't know, I was sure the original was gone before, but people keep saying September 2014. I'm tired. Take what I say with a grain of salt.

Svenn
05-14-2014, 09:13 PM
Well, I am a lawyer. I read the complaint. Everyone just brushing this off as no big deal has no idea what they are talking about, not surprisingly.

This is not Hasbro just fucking around. They have cognizable legal claims in here that could easily get past motions to dismiss or summary judgment, and then you're talking a few years of litigation. Hell, the trade dress complaints about the game interface alone could reach the SCOTUS because that is still an unsettled area of the law. If they got a preliminary injunction to shut the game down, you can basically stick a fork in Hex as you know it.
To be honest, I am pretty worried. I know very little about this type of patent/copyright law, admittedly. As a player, I see the similarities in the two games but I also see quite a few differences. I'm not sure how a court that likely has no experience with TCGs would view the two. I'm just hoping Crypto has been preparing for this and can get through it relatively unscathed.

Hieronymous
05-14-2014, 09:15 PM
Has there been anything said from Cryptos end regarding the lawsuit? Also I looked on WotC career opportunities and an Advanced Designer position for MTGO pop up around the same time Kibler put up his review of the MTGO Beta being rather poor. Hope Hex can whether the storm :)


It will likely take Crypto a little while before they respond because their response has to be formal.

GatticusFinch
05-14-2014, 09:16 PM
The first cause of action is stating by making the game similar it violated Wizards copyright. This will probably be thrown out...copyright doesn't cover this.

The second cause of action is about the game playing the same and the cards looking similar violate their trade dress. The card part is phooey, but I doubt they can argue that mechanics = overall image.

The third cause of action is the patent stuff. Their 1997 patent basically covers all tcgs, while their 2003 patent covers any digital version. Unfortunately the 2003 patent has prior use that can be shown to invalidate it(Sanctum and Chron X both developed in 1997). Honestly the only thing to worry about is the 1997 patent and it hasn't been proven in court yet either and that expires in September(sorry, I originally thought it expired earlier>.<).

Not a lawyer, but I don't think they have a case on Copyright or Trade Dress, just patent law. Patent laws crazy, so I really don't know.

You're not exactly right about the copyright. People keep copying and pasting the same link thinking that copyright violations don't exist in video games. They do. Hasbro couldn't sue CZE for making a card game. That's just the general idea--platformers, fps, etc. However, within that there are copyrightable elements, which is what the lawsuit is addressing.

You're 100% wrong on the trade dress. The law is still somewhat unsettled on electronic interface trade dress, but it is certainly a cognizable legal theory. Their layout of the game and cards is non-functional and distinctive and, let's face it, Hex looks eerily similar. That looks like a prima facie trade dress claim to me.

MatWith1T
05-14-2014, 09:17 PM
Well, I am a lawyer. I read the complaint. Everyone just brushing this off as no big deal has no idea what they are talking about, not surprisingly.

This is not Hasbro just fucking around. They have cognizable legal claims in here that could easily get past motions to dismiss or summary judgment, and then you're talking a few years of litigation. Hell, the trade dress complaints about the game interface alone could reach the SCOTUS because that is still an unsettled area of the law. If they got a preliminary injunction to shut the game down, you can basically stick a fork in Hex as you know it.

Hi Mr. Lawyer Guy… What is the test courts use to determine the merits of an injunction (both preliminary and permanent)? Hex is too early in its development for WotC to have a demonstrable claim that it is being adversely affected, yet it obviously could by the time this trial is actually concluded. And past WotC patent issues have typically ended in licensing settlements, so there appears to be an adequate remedy that isn't injunction. Conversely, CZE may well argue an injunction would be an imbalanced and undue hardship, as it would effectively ruin them before there was any determination of wrongdoing.

So… as I am not a lawyer, and not trying to read tea-leaves into the outcome of the case… what would be the reason for issuing an injunction, and how would it apply here?

Thanks in advance for providing a more insightful response that Google has thus far provided.

Quasari
05-14-2014, 09:19 PM
You're 100% wrong on the trade dress. The law is still somewhat unsettled on electronic interface trade dress, but it is certainly a cognizable legal theory. Their layout of the game and cards is non-functional and distinctive and, let's face it, Hex looks eerily similar.
Thanks, I'd like to learn more.

I do have a question, the cards are similar yet distinctively different to the point that just having one hex card in a batch of magic cards would stick out like a sore thumb, how is that really infringing on this?

Makizushi
05-14-2014, 09:26 PM
Every single backer of Hex needs to write an email to the following address: withheld

Let them know that this is a dick move and that we will boycott all Hasbro and WotC products if this suit isn't withdrawn. I know it's not really enough people to sway them, but if we get some publicity it could at least make them notice.

No. No they do not.

Stay classy.

EDIT:

To be fair, does it matter from a legal standpoint how some members of the game's community refer to a game mechanic? Isn't the actual name of the mechanic/element the important part? In this case, "Shard"?

In this case, yes it does matter because WotCare saying that customers and potential customers have a hard time distinguishing between the two games. They argue that money that would have gone to WotC/MtG is going to CZE/Hex due to their supposed, intentional simile of MtG.

Thrawn
05-14-2014, 09:27 PM
No. No they do not.

Stay classy.

Yeah, I'm going to agree with what someone posted earlier in the thread that pretty much every single post that contains the words sued or lawsuit should be locked and/or deleted. The "Not one penny" thread being a perfect example.

GatticusFinch
05-14-2014, 09:28 PM
Hi Mr. Lawyer Guy… What is the test courts use to determine the merits of an injunction (both preliminary and permanent)? Hex is too early in its development for WotC to have a demonstrable claim that it is being adversely affected, yet it obviously could by the time this trial is actually concluded. And past WotC patent issues have typically ended in licensing settlements, so there appears to be an adequate remedy that isn't injunction. Conversely, CZE may well argue an injunction would be an imbalanced and undue hardship, as it would effectively ruin them before there was any determination of wrongdoing.

So… as I am not a lawyer, and not trying to read tea-leaves into the outcome of the case… what would be the reason for issuing an injunction, and how would it apply here?

Thanks in advance for providing a more insightful response that Google has thus far provided.

Preliminary injunctions are very hard to get. Essentially, you have to make a showing, before doing any formal discovery into the claim, that there is a high likelihood that you will win, that you are likely being irreparably harmed without the injunction, that balancing the equities (basically, justice and fairness) weighs in favor of the party seeking the injunction, and that the injunction is in the public's interest.

Hex isn't too early in development to avoid the injunction. They are already bringing in money. The prior patent resolutions really have no precedent. Legal settlements are not binding precedent.

The reason for issuing an injunction is that law suits can drag on and on. If someone has such a good claim, a preliminary injunction will stop them from being harmed while the law suit is worked out. Otherwise, they could just drag the suit out as long as possible and the damage may already be done by that point.

I doubt a preliminary injunction could be entered in this case, but the reason for entering an injunction would be a showing from Hasbro that they have such a great claim (likely on the patent claim, because the others are much more subjective) that they are going to win and that every day the suit drags on CZE is profiting off of Hasbro's patents.

Idus
05-14-2014, 09:29 PM
If there's an argument over the look and feel, Crypto have repeatedly said that the UI is a "work in progress" and not the final representation.

I also understand the lawsuit is not about enhancements, but the rubbish about lost revenue is ridiculous. I quit magic about 10 years ago, and have had no interest in going back to a PvP card game. I backed hex for the PvE MMO component, in a TCG format, none of which Magic offers, as others have said.

Cernz
05-14-2014, 09:34 PM
The biggest problem at the moment is that a lot of ppl wont buy platinum until this issue will be solved... and this could lead to lack of money... for sure this is not the best thing in the current phase of hex :(

mudgee01
05-14-2014, 09:40 PM
The WOTC post said they had made contact so Crypto would have been aware of this some time ago.

MatWith1T
05-14-2014, 09:42 PM
Preliminary injunctions are very hard to get. Essentially, you have to make a showing, before doing any formal discovery into the claim, that there is a high likelihood that you will win, that you are likely being irreparably harmed without the injunction, that balancing the equities (basically, justice and fairness) weighs in favor of the party seeking the injunction, and that the injunction is in the public's interest.

Hex isn't too early in development to avoid the injunction. They are already bringing in money. The prior patent resolutions really have no precedent. Legal settlements are not binding precedent.

The reason for issuing an injunction is that law suits can drag on and on. If someone has such a good claim, a preliminary injunction will stop them from being harmed while the law suit is worked out. Otherwise, they could just drag the suit out as long as possible and the damage may already be done by that point.

I doubt a preliminary injunction could be entered in this case, but the reason for entering an injunction would be a showing from Hasbro that they have such a great claim (likely on the patent claim, because the others are much more subjective) that they are going to win and that every day the suit drags on CZE is profiting off of Hasbro's patents.

Thanks. What I meant by Hex being early in the development process is that WotC likely has no evidence at this point in time that they themselves are losing money as a result of the alleged infringement. Or is the fact that Hex is making money from their patent (allegedly) in and of itself 'harm' to WotC/Hasbro? Or do they have to argue the potential harm to their own IP (aka MtG) in order to be granted a preliminary injunction?

GatticusFinch
05-14-2014, 09:44 PM
Thanks, I'd like to learn more.

I do have a question, the cards are similar yet distinctively different to the point that just having one hex card in a batch of magic cards would stick out like a sore thumb, how is that really infringing on this?

Trade dress is the totality of the product, the overall image. Obviously, you can drill down to the two cards and say they look different (even though some look almost identical, like Murder in both Hex and Magic). There have been trade dress cases protecting the layouts of restaurants, even though they are obviously not serving the same food, for example.

The trade dress elements cannot be for function--such as tapping cards. That is purely a design feature, it has no actual utilitarian reason to be that way. The trade dress has to be distinct--that is, when you see it, you recall a certain product. So, if you pull back and look at the totality of the two games, you can see some striking similarities in design features: tapping cards, where the deck, graveyard, hand, etc. sits, the chain, the naming of certain elements (swiftstrike versus firststrike). There are a lot of non-functional, distinctive elements that Hex has used that were previously used in Magic. IMO, there are a lot of trade dress arguments that can be made.

The issue is electronic trade dress is a relatively recent area of the law (websites, for example). Unsettled areas of the law will necessarily be more litigated because there are no precedents to judge the case on.

whythelastman
05-14-2014, 09:45 PM
Not really an issue. If it was a physical product I could see it hurting. Since it is digital, let us assume worse case and they lose. It wouldn't be for copyright, it would be for patent infringement but because of the nature of the game. They could change a few things around and still be back in business without skipping a beat.

Not a lawyer, but I hope this is the case.

Question: If HEX is still in development, doesn't CZE have time to produce a finished product that will then be compared to MtG to determine if it's a clone?

Makizushi
05-14-2014, 09:46 PM
World of Warcraft, for example, has a class system rather than a color system. Resources can be any card or can be a type of card that doesn't exist in Magic. There are no resource restrictions, just card restrictions based on class. I can go on and on.

I have always wondered why Wulven haven't been sued by Blizzard yet, because Shadow Era is kind of a blatant copy of Wow:TCG in those regards.


For those who say that dungeons/PVE are unique to Hex: MTG:Duels (on Android and iOS) can be considered PVE as well. And what to think of the original Shandalar game on Win'95? Yeah...

DreamPuppet
05-14-2014, 09:46 PM
I have never, ever heard "shard screwed" - but I have heard mana screwed lots of times.

I think people are letting their love of Hex get in the way of honestly evaluating the similarities. Gin Rummy? Give me a break.


To be fair, does it matter from a legal standpoint how some members of the game's community refer to a game mechanic? Isn't the actual name of the mechanic/element the important part? In this case, "Shard"?

I was often "mana" screwed when i played the World Of Warcraft MMO, maybe they should sue blizzard too.

GatticusFinch
05-14-2014, 09:52 PM
Thanks. What I meant by Hex being early in the development process is that WotC likely has no evidence at this point in time that they themselves are losing money as a result of the alleged infringement. Or is the fact that Hex is making money from their patent (allegedly) in and of itself 'harm' to WotC/Hasbro? Or do they have to argue the potential harm to their own IP (aka MtG) in order to be granted a preliminary injunction?

They don't need to show anything like "Billy said he was going to buy MTGO cards, but then Hex came out, and we lost $50." That's way too specific. What they have to show is the substantial threat of irreparable injury, and they would probably try to show that by saying that if Hex was allowed to fully develop, it could poach all of the MTGO players, and then the damage would be done.

In a certain sense, you are right--the fact that Hex is even taking in money at all could be enough to meet that leg of the test. The hardest part is proving that you have a substantial likelihood of actually winning the case. That's hard to convince a judge right when the case just starts.

katkillad
05-14-2014, 09:52 PM
You're 100% wrong on the trade dress. The law is still somewhat unsettled on electronic interface trade dress, but it is certainly a cognizable legal theory. Their layout of the game and cards is non-functional and distinctive and, let's face it, Hex looks eerily similar. That looks like a prima facie trade dress claim to me.

Does it really look similar? They both have "cards", but even those are pretty different.

1824

1825

Hibbert
05-14-2014, 09:53 PM
You're 100% wrong on the trade dress. The law is still somewhat unsettled on electronic interface trade dress, but it is certainly a cognizable legal theory. Their layout of the game and cards is non-functional and distinctive and, let's face it, Hex looks eerily similar. That looks like a prima facie trade dress claim to me.

Yay, an actual lawyer to give us some insights.

Regarding the trade dress claims, is trade dress defense like trademark defense, in that you have to actively enforce it? If that's the case, hasn't the ship long since sailed? There are tons of CCG's, LCG's, deck building games, etc. that feature cards with a frame, cost, power, etc. and many of them are very similar to MtG's layout. Likewise the game interface is similar to DotP, but the same could be said of a dozen other computer card games.

GatticusFinch
05-14-2014, 09:57 PM
Does it really look similar? They both have "cards", but even those are pretty different.

1824

1825

Does it look similar now?

http://www.kritikanstvo.ru/games/m/magic2014duelsoftheplaneswalkers/images/magic2014duelsoftheplaneswalkers_ps3_523696.jpg

I'd say so.

Clay_B
05-14-2014, 10:00 PM
@GatticusFinch do you know how things like common use, public domain etc. effect this?

katkillad
05-14-2014, 10:02 PM
Does it look similar now?

http://www.kritikanstvo.ru/games/m/magic2014duelsoftheplaneswalkers/images/magic2014duelsoftheplaneswalkers_ps3_523696.jpg

I'd say so.

The lawsuit doesn't mention Duels of the Planeswalker once, and while that contains a way to play Magic partially, it's even further from what Hex is.

GatticusFinch
05-14-2014, 10:03 PM
Yay, an actual lawyer to give us some insights.

Regarding the trade dress claims, is trade dress defense like trademark defense, in that you have to actively enforce it? If that's the case, hasn't the ship long since sailed? There are tons of CCG's, LCG's, deck building games, etc. that feature cards with a frame, cost, power, etc. and many of them are very similar to MtG's layout. Likewise the game interface is similar to DotP, but the same could be said of a dozen other computer card games.

Yes, you actually have to try to enforce it. However, you don't have to go after every single one. You do need to go after the big ones, and I think they can point back to prior suits to show they have been protecting it.