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fido_one
05-21-2014, 08:23 AM
Hey all,

I missed the last Sealed Sunday due to work. I've been wanting to scratch the itch but it's hard to attract players in the queue.

How about we set up some times every day that can attract people who want to play sealed?

What do people think of congregating for sealed tournaments every weekday at 8 EDT? Being on the east coast I'd like it to be earlier but I'd also like those lucky enough on the west coast that can get out at 5 p.m. to catch the game. (Those not in the Americas are welcome to play but I know the times are more problematic).

Weekends can be at a different time; I'd vote to move it up to noon EDT as we can get some more global play.

So to reiterate:

SEALED PLAY TIMES
Monday - Friday: 8 PM EDT / 5 PM PST / 12 AM GMT / 10 AM EST (AUS/NZ +1 day)
Saturday / Sunday: 12 PM EDT / 9 AM PST / 4 PM GMT / 2 AM EST (AUS/NZ +1 day)

If there is enough interest I'll either update these slot times with a consensus or add more (such as different slots for people not in the Americas).

hashinshin
05-21-2014, 08:38 AM
I've never had issues getting a draft game going at any time any day.

Dynimix
05-21-2014, 08:41 AM
Sealed is tougher than other drafts simply because you have to throw in so many packs.

Though, I would be in for those times.

Scammanator
05-21-2014, 08:44 AM
Also, there are a couple thousand people receiving Free Draft tickets every week, but no one gets Free Sealed tickets.

fido_one
05-21-2014, 09:01 AM
I've never had issues getting a draft game going at any time any day.

Yeah, drafts are still hopping, which is awesome. This is for sealed - as someone else noted, there are no tickets and the 'price of admission' is higher (6 packs instead of 3).

Still, if you're itching to open up your boosters and don't want to stress out about the scrum for cards that happens in a draft, no better / more efficient way to do that than a swiss sealed tournament!

MatWith1T
05-21-2014, 09:12 AM
Hypothetically speaking... if tournament tickets were to be usable for any format... do you think Sealed would instantly become the preferred format, simply from a value perspective?

My personal opinion is that most people would still continue to play draft, because that is the format that more people enjoy most. Of course, without other people weighing in on the subject, that is pure conjecture. But if true, Hex could open up Sealed to free ticket play and 30-40% of the draft playerbase would switch to Sealed, making both formats active.

Also worth noting that right now the game is awash in free tourny tickets, which won't always be the case. When people are actually paying for packs and entry fees, something might have to be done to the Sealed reward structure to make it more competitive with draft's value ($13 vs $7 for some share of a 12 pack prize)

fido_one
05-21-2014, 09:22 AM
Hypothetically speaking... if tournament tickets were to be usable for any format... do you think Sealed would instantly become the preferred format, simply from a value perspective?

My personal opinion is that most people would still continue to play draft, because that is the format that more people enjoy most. Of course, without other people weighing in on the subject, that is pure conjecture. But if true, Hex could open up Sealed to free ticket play and 30-40% of the draft playerbase would switch to Sealed, making both formats active.

Also worth noting that right now the game is awash in free tourny tickets, which won't always be the case. When people are actually paying for packs and entry fees, something might have to be done to the Sealed reward structure to make it more competitive with draft's value ($13 vs $7 for some share of a 12 pack prize)

I think draft will always be more popular for a variety of reasons - the draft pick process is a lot of fun and it's a play style that relies on skill as much as luck. Picking cards in draft is inherently different from sealed or just cracking a pack, however. You don't look at draft booster as your cards until you select them, and you need to weigh selecting them with the ability to play in the tournament. Sometimes I find that fun, other times I do not. Sealed has, in my opinion, has more luck imbued into it than draft, which is great because my skill level sucks at all TCGs.

With sealed I see it as "I'm sitting on unopened boosters, and for an extra dollar I can open 6 of them, get some gold, and probably one or more extra boosters". Unless I'm super unlucky/bad-that-day, it's a booster for a buck, which I'm game for even with my cache of boosters from the KS. I love cracking packs and I still get an equivalent rush at the start of a sealed tournament, I don't get that hit with draft.

So I think you're right on your points Mat, though I think beyond the economics of entry fee and winnings there are people like me who are attracted to it for non-economical/competitive reasons.

MatWith1T
05-21-2014, 09:54 AM
So I think you're right on your points Mat, though I think beyond the economics of entry fee and winnings there are people like me who are attracted to it for non-economical/competitive reasons.


I'm in the same boat... there are many times I'd rather be playing Sealed purely because I'd rather be playing Sealed.

Ignoring costs and payouts and tournament tickets and all that, I believe you are right - all things equal, Draft will always be more popular than Sealed. But since Draft is also cheaper (potentially free) and quicker to get a game, the scales are way out of balance - you would expect the breakdown of tournaments to be something like 70-80% Draft vs 20-30% Sealed, instead of the current 100% to 0% (except when everyone plans to play Sealed a week in advance on the forums).

I mention the economics because its the only tool Hex/CZE really has to increase demand for the format. Though I'd rather be playing Sealed at times, there is much greater incentive to just play Draft instead (it's cheaper and you can play it more or less instantly right now). Since the waiting time is a result of demand (and not something the CZE can 'turn a knob' to fix), the only tool CZE has to shift the incentive to play to a more balanced place is by 'turning knobs' on price and payouts. I'm looking for options that would reduce a player's incentive to 'just go play Draft instead' when they'd rather be trying out Sealed.

frychikn
05-21-2014, 10:01 AM
Also, there are a couple thousand people receiving Free Draft tickets every week, but no one gets Free Sealed tickets.

what are the free draft ticket from? do slacker backers get free drafts? i thought they got VIP but i havnt gotten an email for it.

Turtlewing
05-21-2014, 10:11 AM
I think that if the current draft tickets were changed to generic tournament entry tickets and no other changes were made the more competitive players would stick to draft and the more casual players would switch to sealed.

For a player who is likely to take 1st or second in a draft, draft remains the better value (45 cards +5 or 3 unopened packs), and the draft format reduces the effects of randomization on the outcome by sharing the card pool among all players 9giving more skilled players a better chance of taking the top spots).

For a player who is less likely to take 1st or 2nd entering a sealed tournament with a ticket would bet the better value (90 cards + up to 3 unopened packs) and the separate card pools means luck is a bigger factor which means a batter win chance for lower skill players.

I can't really see anyone using a ticket for constructed unless that ticket was only good for constructed.

darkwonders
05-21-2014, 10:21 AM
If they implement my idea of allowing draft ticket holders to upgrade to sealed by providing 3 of their own booster packs, there's more of a chance people will play Sealed some weeks because a) lots of people are sitting on booster packs and b) it's cheaper to only buy 3 booster packs as opposed to 6.

fido_one
05-21-2014, 10:21 AM
what are the free draft ticket from? do slacker backers get free drafts? i thought they got VIP but i havnt gotten an email for it.

Anyone who backed a 250 USD tier or above on kickstarter got a draft ticket every week for a year or for life (if they picked and got into the 'Pro Player' Kickstarter tier). All KS backers (except for Supporter) got 3 single use draft tickets. Slacker backers did not get any.

I'm sure there will be opportunities for things with draft tickets in the future, but CZE has come out and said multiple times that the weekly / lifetime drafts were a one time deal.

Turtlewing
05-21-2014, 10:30 AM
If they implement my idea of allowing draft ticket holders to upgrade to sealed by providing 3 of their own booster packs, there's more of a chance people will play Sealed some weeks because a) lots of people are sitting on booster packs and b) it's cheaper to only buy 3 booster packs as opposed to 6.

The problem there is that if you're good, you stand to win more packs in draft than sealed so the expected value of entering a draft with a ticket is still better than it is for entering sealed for a ticket and 3 packs.

KamaitachiTrey
05-21-2014, 10:43 AM
I haven't been able to play one Sealed yet, but have been craving playing it for weeks now.

I think later tonight/tomorrow night I'll be really pushing for some. It'd probably be around 9 or 10 tonight/tomorrow pacific time.

fido_one
05-21-2014, 10:48 AM
I haven't been able to play one Sealed yet, but have been craving playing it for weeks now.

I think later tonight/tomorrow night I'll be really pushing for some. It'd probably be around 9 or 10 tonight/tomorrow pacific time.

I'm looking to put regular times in my OP for people until, like Mat said elegantly in his posts, there are enough players to make it sustainable for an ad-hoc tournament. If you think a 9 p.m. PST slot would work on most weekdays and weekends and could be sustainable I can attach that to my OP. I'm reluctant to do that on just one date however; the point of this thread is so we don't get a new thread for a one-time sealed event and more so we can say any day of the week 'oh yeah, the guys/gals are getting together for a sealed event in an hour and I want in'.

MatWith1T
05-21-2014, 11:14 AM
Unless everyone promises to finish their round in 20 minutes or less, 9 PST is kinda late for us East Coasters :)
7 or 8 PST (10 or 11 EST) would work

Dynimix
05-21-2014, 11:16 AM
Do you think make sealed "free" would change the percentage of people playing? What I mean by that is, instead of 100p, you just need to provide the 6 packs. I know financially, that is really just $12 vs. $13, but thought I would throw it out there.

MatWith1T
05-21-2014, 11:54 AM
Do you think make sealed "free" would change the percentage of people playing? What I mean by that is, instead of 100p, you just need to provide the 6 packs. I know financially, that is really just $12 vs. $13, but thought I would throw it out there.

I don't believe so - the rewards is more likely to impact people's choice than the cost. Draft costs $7, includes 3 packs, and has a potential to add anywhere from 0-8 extra packs. Sealed is $13, includes 6 packs, and potentially 8 packs, (but more likely 3, as it seems Sealed will be leaning towards Swiss)

There's two ways to approach it... using the expected value (EV), or the psychological component

The EV is simple... on average, over time, any of these formats will net you extra packs as a reward (12 packs split 8 ways)

The EV of Draft is 4.5 packs for $7 = $1.56/pack
The EV of Sealed is 7.5 packs for $13 = $1.73/pack ($1.60 if there's no entry fee as you suggested)
The EV of Swiss Sealed is also 7.5 packs for $13
Draft is "cheaper", but no so much that someone who wanted to play Sealed would feel obliged to Draft instead.

But consider the potential 'jackpot' payouts
Draft: 11 packs for $7 - $0.64/pack
Sealed: 14 packs for $13 - $0.93/pack ($0.85 with no entry fee)
Swiss Sealed: 11 packs for $13 - $1.18/pack ($1.09 with no fee)

While the cold hard statistics of expected value doesn't really swing the pendulum one way or the other... the psychological appeal of winning makes a compelling case for playing Draft above all else. And that psychological component is important - its why lotteries and casinos exist.... it plays a much much larger role in decision making than it ought to.

So, there is already a compelling case to play Draft over Sealed, and you have to reaalllllly want to play Sealed to ignore that case. But now, make the cost of draft $0 and it's an absolute no brainer. It's particularly noticeable now, since free tickets make up a good chunk of the games being played in Beta - but even as paid games start playing a bigger and bigger role, the original problem exists: if you consider both formats to be equally fun, you are better off playing Draft. You have to enjoy playing Sealed twice as much as Draft ( Fun can be quantified, shut up! :-P ) to play it, which leaves a tiny population of Sealed players.

Long story short - Since lowering the entry fee has little effect, Sealed should have better rewards.


Edit - ADDENDUM: You could also theoretically reduce the number of packs used in Sealed from 6 to either 4 or 5, which would balance out the payouts a lot. But 4-pack Sealed is REALLY hard to make a deck with... challenging and rewarding, but HARD - the exact opposite of beginner friendly. I'd gladly play it, but it's probably better off as one of those 'When we have enough players to support it...' extra formats along with all the others people have suggested in the forums.

BKCshah
05-21-2014, 12:03 PM
Short version of the above. Double the entry fee + double the payout, and I'd play them. Not the most optimal, but not the absolute worst either.

MatWith1T
05-21-2014, 12:06 PM
Short version of the above. Double the entry fee + double the payout, and I'd play them. Not the most optimal, but not the absolute worst either.

Yup. More or less.

fido_one
05-21-2014, 03:43 PM
I'm bumping as I'll be in a queue tonight, 8 p.m. EDT (that's about an hour and 15 minutes from this post).

fido_one
05-21-2014, 05:14 PM
...and I was 15 minutes late because I was hanging out a window for something and had a clock set on the wrong time. I only see one other player in there - either it filled up at 8 EDT or today is a dud...

fido_one
05-22-2014, 03:39 PM
...so I was late to the party I was trying to arrange yesterday; even then I don't think we had more than a few bites.

Let's try again tonight! Thursday, May 22nd (the 23rd for our friends on the other side of the world) at 8 p.m. EDT. I'll try not to be late again (though my keep name is different than this username).

fido_one
05-22-2014, 04:48 PM
Right, it's 7:47 EDT and we have 5/8 in the queue so we should make the numbers tonight - come in now or possibly lose out on tonight's sealed!

Skirovik
05-22-2014, 09:59 PM
I like the idea of having a set time for this. I'll be happy to jump on board some of these once the AH is up (and I can sell some packs/cards for platinum). :)

Zomnivore
05-22-2014, 11:49 PM
<3 I do believe the ticket cost and such needs to double, but its still a fun format...even if it is unfortunately inefficient.

Sealed Sunday Starting at Six Central...until we have a a bunch of regular sealed players.

AstaSyneri
05-23-2014, 12:42 AM
The Unnamed Council is jumping on the band wagon tonight (Friday) - we are going to meet up and then clog the Sealed Queue. We may do shoutouts on the forum if/when we are set up.

Ali3nSan
05-23-2014, 12:44 AM
The Unnamed Council is jumping on the band wagon tonight (Friday) - we are going to meet up and then clog the Sealed Queue. We may do shoutouts on the forum if/when we are set up.

Do shoutout :)

If I am up [Damn Aussie Time] I will pop in :D

Kroan
05-23-2014, 12:56 AM
Honestly, they should just do a Friday Hex Night or something every week with a rotating format and extra prizes (do I hear more AA's? Yes I do!)

fido_one
05-23-2014, 04:34 AM
Thursday night was a blast - just as awesome as I was hoping. I'm going to try and be there around 8 p.m. EDT tonight though I may have some issues given what I have going on.

Regarding Zom's 'Sealed Sunday at Six Central' <- That's still on, but I'd also like to shoot for Saturday and Sunday at 12 EDT as Europe can jump in if they choose to do so.

Lukezors
05-23-2014, 05:28 AM
Anyone interested in sealed on saturday morning? (~9am EST?)

fido_one
05-23-2014, 06:07 AM
Anyone interested in sealed on saturday morning? (~9am EST?)

EST (Australia or NZ) or EDT (America east coast)? If it's EST the 8 p.m. EDT game should be 10 a.m. EST.

Lukezors
05-23-2014, 06:14 AM
American east coast( or Canada in this case ;))

fido_one
05-23-2014, 09:18 AM
American east coast( or Canada in this case ;))

I'm afraid I'm slated tomorrow morning - if you think you can make 9am a regular thing I'll bop into the OP, or you may want to start a separate thread if you're drumming up a one time event and we don't seem to have enough traction here...

Sorry, I meant 'Americas' not 'America', I hate how everything is always US centric and I'm working on getting out of that rut, though I'm sure it drives you nuts more than it does us.

cavench
05-23-2014, 10:32 AM
Keep this up and let us know if it is working out. I prefer to use my boosters on draft but if I see a seal stuck at 6/8 or 7/8 players I will jump in to help get it started.

fido_one
05-24-2014, 06:44 AM
I couldn't make Friday nights draft so I don't know if it fired off or not (anyone know?).

I should be there at noon EDT today, Saturday; come on down for a bit o' sealed!

fido_one
05-24-2014, 08:55 AM
Well I'm in the queue right now for the noon EDT session - don't have any takers yet, but I'll stick around for a bit more in hopes that one of you can join me [in a fight to the death]!

fido_one
05-25-2014, 07:46 AM
...so yesterday 12 EDT did not happen.

That doesn't mean it won't happen today! I'll be in a queue starting at 12 EDT, that's in about an hour and 15 minutes.

I'm assuming Zom's Sealed Sunday at Six Central is still on as well...

fido_one
05-25-2014, 08:55 AM
5 minutes! We had a few in the queue, but they left - I'll stick around for another 15 minutes...

fido_one
05-26-2014, 12:48 PM
Right, yesterday was a dud but that won't deter us, will it?

Tonight - 8 p.m. EDT come on down for a sealed tournament!

fido_one
05-26-2014, 04:46 PM
It's 7:45 pm EDT! I'm in the queue, come on down!

darkwonders
05-26-2014, 07:17 PM
Well I now know hardly anyone plays Sealed. It's a waste of time if your boosters are utterly terrible.

No bombs. No hard removal. very little burn cards in general and weak creatures.

I'll be sticking to Booster Draft from now on. At least there I can curtail a deck to my liking.

fido_one
05-27-2014, 05:49 AM
Sorry you didn't enjoy yourself last night Dark; even though my pulls were rather lackluster I still had a great time...

Sealed is a bit more luck based, a lot less frequent that you get an amazing hand, though everyone is in the same boat.

darkwonders
05-27-2014, 08:26 AM
Well 2 of the 3 people I faced had all the good cheap green buffs and white hard removal. I didn't even get any bounce or reversion cards. My burns consisted of 2 artifacts and burn itself, but I didn't get any real decent ruby cards to compliment it.

Upside is that my final game bugged out so I'll get a free draft ticket out of it.

fido_one
05-27-2014, 03:46 PM
It's that time again! 8 EDT (that's 8 pm eastern daylight savings time on Americas east cost) tonight sealed tournament!

That's in one hour and 15 minutes. Last night it didn't fire off until 8:30, let's try and queue up a wee bit earlier!

fido_one
05-29-2014, 04:51 PM
We haven't forgotten about you, Internets! 10 minutes, sealed; let's do it!