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mach
05-21-2014, 09:19 AM
IMO they should set Constructed tournaments to not require you to own the cards until the AH/trading are implemented.

Rendakor
05-21-2014, 09:51 AM
IMO they should set Constructed tournaments to not require you to own the cards until the AH/trading are implemented.
So they should stop working on the AH/trading to implement a ghost-Constructed format that they're then going to remove when they finish the features they're currently working on? Um...

ryuukan
05-21-2014, 01:01 PM
IMO they should set Constructed tournaments to not require you to own the cards until the AH/trading are implemented.

That would be pretty backwards but AH/trading is needed badly

mach
05-21-2014, 01:39 PM
So they should stop working on the AH/trading to implement a ghost-Constructed format that they're then going to remove when they finish the features they're currently working on? Um...

It's less a matter of adding something than it is removing something (one of the validation checks).

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 01:50 PM
It's less a matter of adding something than it is removing something (one of the validation checks).

You are underestimating the work required to do this. They would have to do multiple things to make this work.

First: Allow proxy cards that are easily identifiable in the collection. Because they can't grant everyone all the cards and then roll everything back later, because collections are live. The whole thing would be a massive mess.

Second: Allowing deckbuilding with cards that aren't a legal part of your collection. Just because they could create proxy cards, they have to be able to differentiate between legitimate cards and the fakes.

Third: They need to create a way to mass remove proxies from all accounts at once without leaving any behind.

The dev time on all those separate parts would not be trivial - they could waste two or months on it easily, and I imagine the AH would be done long before that.

mach
05-21-2014, 01:55 PM
You are underestimating the work required to do this. They would have to do multiple things to make this work.

First: Allow proxy cards that are easily identifiable in the collection. Because they can't grant everyone all the cards and then roll everything back later, because collections are live. The whole thing would be a massive mess.

Second: Allowing deckbuilding with cards that aren't a legal part of your collection. Just because they could create proxy cards, they have to be able to differentiate between legitimate cards and the fakes.

Third: They need to create a way to mass remove proxies from all accounts at once without leaving any behind.

The dev time on all those separate parts would not be trivial - they could waste two or months on it easily, and I imagine the AH would be done long before that.

They don't need to create proxy cards. They do need to make it so you can deckbuild with cards you don't own, but that's a feature they should add anyway. I should be able to create a deck using the full card pool and then acquire the cards I'm missing. Preferably at some point with a tool which allows me to buy all the cards I'm missing from the AH at the lowest available price in a single action.

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 02:01 PM
They don't need to create proxy cards. They do need to make it so you can deckbuild with cards you don't own, but that's a feature they should add anyway. I should be able to create a deck using the full card pool and then acquire the cards I'm missing. Preferably at some point with a tool which allows me to buy all the cards I'm missing from the AH at the lowest available price in a single action.

I don't think that they will ever let you place cards you don't own into your deck. The AH interaction with the collection will just buy the card and place it in your collection, which is perfectly fine.

But at this point in time, they absolutely would need proxies (because to do what you are asking would actually take months more than what I have described.) Making proxy cards would take a few flags, and some extra framework - your idea would take finishing an incomplete feature, adding unplanned functionality to it, and then making it compatible with tournaments.

Niether option is good and niether option would make it live before the AH.

mach
05-21-2014, 02:07 PM
I don't think that they will ever let you place cards you don't own into your deck.

If true, that's very disappointing. The majority of serious competitive TCG players I know build their decks first and then acquire the cards they need. Hex is supposed to be innovating, not taking steps backwards.

So this is something they should add - and quickly, if they want to attract competitive players. Once they have it they don't need proxies.

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 02:21 PM
If true, that's very disappointing. The majority of serious competitive TCG players I know build their decks first and then acquire the cards they need. Hex is supposed to be innovating, not taking steps backwards.

So this is something they should add - and quickly, if they want to attract competitive players. Once they have it they don't need proxies.

Considering how cheap Hex is, I think it would be counter-productive to allow people to play with what would essentially be proxies completely for free.

However, I could see this being part of the VIP program, since it isn't completely free then (and it makes for another good selling point.) Besides, with so many different kinds of cards and mercs etc out there, where would you draw the line? That is something that worries me a little.

I think with guild banks it would be more than acceptable to not have this feature - if you want to test things, join a guild. I know I am working on a full collection of set 1 for this exact reason.

Werlix
05-21-2014, 05:10 PM
Considering how cheap Hex is, I think it would be counter-productive to allow people to play with what would essentially be proxies completely for free.

However, I could see this being part of the VIP program, since it isn't completely free then (and it makes for another good selling point.) Besides, with so many different kinds of cards and mercs etc out there, where would you draw the line? That is something that worries me a little.

I think with guild banks it would be more than acceptable to not have this feature - if you want to test things, join a guild. I know I am working on a full collection of set 1 for this exact reason.

He means that you should be able to build decks using cards you don't own. But the deck won't be valid (playable) until you acquire said cards.

I sure hope this feature is implemented some time down the road too. I would love to be able to create a deck from the entire card pool to see what cards I need to buy (and have links straight to the AH to buy them).

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 05:29 PM
He means that you should be able to build decks using cards you don't own. But the deck won't be valid (playable) until you acquire said cards.

I sure hope this feature is implemented some time down the road too. I would love to be able to create a deck from the entire card pool to see what cards I need to buy (and have links straight to the AH to buy them).

No, he is also asking for them to be playable, which opens up a slew of issues. And if you were able to build the deck, so what? If you can't actually test it, you are going to have to buy or borrow the cards anyway.

Rendakor
05-21-2014, 09:28 PM
Eventually, being able to add cards to a deck that you don't own but NOT play with said deck until you buy the cards, would be a cool feature. It is not more important than the AH, trading or guilds. The proxy solution is way more work than it's worth; we had all of alpha to play with full collections. Given Shaq's cryptic post in one of the 10 other AH threads I'm hoping it'll be done this week or next.

DoctorJoe
05-22-2014, 05:35 AM
No, he is also asking for them to be playable, which opens up a slew of issues. And if you were able to build the deck, so what? If you can't actually test it, you are going to have to buy or borrow the cards anyway.

I believe Werlix is correct. Mach appears to be asking for functionality similar to the MTGO client, in which you can build a decks with any cards in the game and cards you don't own show red titles. Then you go acquire the singles you need to fill out the deck so that you can play it.

Hopefully the deckbuilder is miles from "feature complete" because as-is, it isn't very good.

mach
05-22-2014, 05:48 AM
I believe Werlix is correct. Mach appears to be asking for functionality similar to the MTGO client, in which you can build a decks with any cards in the game and cards you don't own show red titles. Then you go acquire the singles you need to fill out the deck so that you can play it.


Yup. The deckbuilder should have this functionality, and as soon as possible. I consider it core functionality, not a nice extra.

As a separate issue, I'd also like to see, as a temporary measure only until AH/trading are in and stable, Constructed events not require you to own the cards. If the deckbuilder had this functionality, this would be trivial for them to implement.

Xenavire
05-22-2014, 06:06 AM
I don't really understand the reasoning behind all this. Why build a deck with cards you don't have? If you can't test it, it is worth less than proxies. I can just as easily write down a decklist on paper.

It just seem superfluous. About the only real use I could see it having is making the deck, then goldfishing to see where it might need improvement, before committing to the cards. But without proper playtesting it is still just theory, and largely useless - when the guild features are going to be able to replace the need for proxies in most cases, I just see this as extra programming wasted on a feature that will be used by a tiny portion of the playerbase.

I don't see it as a core feature. And it doesn't seem like it should be treated as one. There are far more important things to deal with first (AH/Trading/Guilds/PvE/Chest opening/Large scale tournaments, etc.)

CGOOnline
05-22-2014, 06:33 AM
I don't really understand the reasoning behind all this. Why build a deck with cards you don't have? If you can't test it, it is worth less than proxies. I can just as easily write down a decklist on paper.

It just seem superfluous. About the only real use I could see it having is making the deck, then goldfishing to see where it might need improvement, before committing to the cards. But without proper playtesting it is still just theory, and largely useless - when the guild features are going to be able to replace the need for proxies in most cases, I just see this as extra programming wasted on a feature that will be used by a tiny portion of the playerbase.

I don't see it as a core feature. And it doesn't seem like it should be treated as one. There are far more important things to deal with first (AH/Trading/Guilds/PvE/Chest opening/Large scale tournaments, etc.)

@ Xenavire: I would agree that being able to build decks even without having the cards is useful.

First, some players are visual and seeing the cards together helps compare game text / stats with other cards in the deck. I know I would like to see the cards all together regardless of whether I currently own them.

Second, HEX does have ways of viewing deck statistics, correct? Adding cards you don't have allows you to analyze you cost curve, etc. You can't do that as easily on paper. You add a card to your deck and your deck analysis statistics adjust automatically for you.

Third, you will be able to use specific tools in "testing" the deck like drawing sample hands, mulligans, etc.

Fourth, having the cards listed even when you don't own them helps players become familiar with the cards' statistics (game text, etc.). This helps both new and experience players. When a new expansion is released, seeing all of the cards regardless of ownership helps in getting familiar with the new meta game. This helps even experience players learn the new cards. Right now it is very difficult for a new player to become familiar with any of the cards not in their starter deck without having to go to an external web site. In addition, since this is a digital card game, I don't know how accurate the game text and statistics are with these external web sites. How do I know (a player only a few days into the game) know how accurate those sites are? Only the HEX game itself has the up to the minute accurate representation of the statistics. I would rather rely on the game itself than some unsupported external website.

Please note that I'm *not* suggesting being able to actually playing a deck when you don't have the cards. You would still need to obtain the cards before playing the deck. I've used this feature elsewhere in planning what cards I need to buy. It's better to plan out a deck even before you have the cards than to buy cards and find you wasted your money obtaining cards that don't need.

I would also agree that it's not a feature to be placed in front of the Auction House or trading. However, I do feel it is an important feature going forward.

Kami
05-22-2014, 06:34 AM
I don't really understand the reasoning behind all this. Why build a deck with cards you don't have? If you can't test it, it is worth less than proxies. I can just as easily write down a decklist on paper.

For ease. While you can't use it or test it, you can at least take advantage of the deck building functions in the game to view ratios, check how many cards you're missing, etc.

It's actually quite relevant if you just like to get a general idea of how your deck might look rather than just working it out in your head or on paper.

Xenavire
05-22-2014, 06:55 AM
I am aware of the benefits (when I said goldfishing, I should have elaborated, I meant all of the deck stat tools) but my point hasn't changed - even if it is useful, it is far from being a core feature. And it should not be a priority until most other features are in.

Dynimix
05-22-2014, 06:59 AM
Guys, I just want to say, and I am not trying to be "that guy" or a jerk, but this is beta. The AH will come, but as a beta, I am not sure it is badly needed. Features will be released 1 by 1. Right now, this is not the full game. A few years back, what we are doing, that is...being involved in beta, never happened. We have come to expect a full game out of a beta and while when something goes to beta that means it is becoming more complete, it does not mean we have all of the features. This is only just a reminder of where we are at in the development lifecycle.

I am not saying I don't want the auction house or additional features, but we are privileged to be apart of this :)

Xenavire
05-22-2014, 08:03 AM
Guys, I just want to say, and I am not trying to be "that guy" or a jerk, but this is beta. The AH will come, but as a beta, I am not sure it is badly needed. Features will be released 1 by 1. Right now, this is not the full game. A few years back, what we are doing, that is...being involved in beta, never happened. We have come to expect a full game out of a beta and while when something goes to beta that means it is becoming more complete, it does not mean we have all of the features. This is only just a reminder of where we are at in the development lifecycle.

I am not saying I don't want the auction house or additional features, but we are privileged to be apart of this :)

Actually, the AH is the next feature. If we don't get the AH, we don't get anything new.

But I disagree anyway - the AH and trading are both important features that need to be tested in a live environment before we get to open beta. They need to be rock solid, and actually need to be in before PvE, any official tournaments, or a lot of other things.

Basically, having a working economy is going to be the biggest selling point to a lot of people. PvE players will want PvP cards for 'free', and the AH will give them that option.

Dynimix
05-22-2014, 08:15 AM
But I disagree anyway - the AH and trading are both important features that need to be tested in a live environment before we get to open beta.

We are in agreement. I just don't feel like at the exact moment we need it. It should come in beta, we just don't need it this moment.

Xenavire
05-22-2014, 08:22 AM
We are in agreement. I just don't feel like at the exact moment we need it. It should come in beta, we just don't need it this moment.

We do, actually. It is the only feature we need right now. PvE is slated for open beta, and we can't go into open beta until the AH is tested.

It is very clear cut. What feature could possibly be more important?

Vorpal
05-22-2014, 09:56 AM
I think the 'testing decks you don't own' is part of the whole guild vault thing.

I agree it can be a useful part of the game.

I disagree they should take time away from developing the AH to implement a confusing work around to tide us over until they do put in the AH - I'd rather they just get the AH up and running.

mach
05-22-2014, 11:40 AM
We do, actually. It is the only feature we need right now. PvE is slated for open beta, and we can't go into open beta until the AH is tested.

It is very clear cut. What feature could possibly be more important?

Yes, it's the most important feature. However, it's also the feature which will cause them the most damage if something goes wrong with it. So they need to test it as exhaustively as they can internally first. Since everyone is playing for keeps now, they no longer have the luxury of doing the bulk of the testing on the public servers.

While QA is doing the weeks of exhaustive testing, the programmers can move on to other features.

Xenavire
05-22-2014, 11:44 AM
Yes, it's the most important feature. However, it's also the feature which will cause them the most damage if something goes wrong with it. So they need to test it as exhaustively as they can internally first. Since everyone is playing for keeps now, they no longer have the luxury of doing the bulk of the testing on the public servers.

While QA is doing the weeks of exhaustive testing, the programmers can move on to other features.

Exactly my point - it needs to be solid before we reach open beta (I think a tiny bug could be forgiven in closed beta, but in open beta it has to be flawless.)

I would be happy to see the arena pushed before the AH if it comes to that, but I really just want to have the 'must be flawless' features out of the road.

Turtlewing
05-22-2014, 12:25 PM
While QA is doing the weeks of exhaustive testing, the programmers can move on to other features.

That's not true unless the bugs have already been fixed, and if the bugs have already been fixed there's not need for the testing.

Realistically, during testing QA will find bugs that the developers need to fix, so they can't move on to other features.

Xenavire
05-22-2014, 12:33 PM
That's not true unless the bugs have already been fixed, and if the bugs have already been fixed there's not need for the testing.

Realistically, during testing QA will find bugs that the developers need to fix, so they can't move on to other features.

Not all the teams are on the same projects though. And perhaps the UI devs can move to another portion of the game because the AH UI is already fine, but the coding devs need to work on the bugs.

Dynimix
05-22-2014, 12:35 PM
We do, actually. It is the only feature we need right now. PvE is slated for open beta, and we can't go into open beta until the AH is tested.

It is very clear cut. What feature could possibly be more important?

Not going to battle this out. I agree with you that it is what we need next. :)

mach
05-22-2014, 01:16 PM
Exactly my point - it needs to be solid before we reach open beta (I think a tiny bug could be forgiven in closed beta, but in open beta it has to be flawless.)


It's not a matter of forgiving bugs. Bugs with trading/AH are potentially very tricky (and expensive) to correct. If someone gets some cards they shouldn't due to a bug/exploit but before they can be removed they are traded/sold, then traded/sold again and again, the entire chain of transactions can be very time=consuming to disengage and correct.

The worst thing they can do is rush is because they agree with you that we need AH soon. That's why I suggested a workaround for the immediate need for an AH.


That's not true unless the bugs have already been fixed, and if the bugs have already been fixed there's not need for the testing.

Realistically, during testing QA will find bugs that the developers need to fix, so they can't move on to other features.

So what do you expect them to do while waiting on QA? Twiddle their thumbs?

Yes, developers will still need to spend some time on the AH during the QA phase, but the majority of their time will be spent on something else at that point.

zadies
05-22-2014, 01:26 PM
I point to neverwinter as a good reason that an AH should be EXTENSIVELY tested and then tested again.

Xenavire
05-22-2014, 01:47 PM
It's not a matter of forgiving bugs. Bugs with trading/AH are potentially very tricky (and expensive) to correct. If someone gets some cards they shouldn't due to a bug/exploit but before they can be removed they are traded/sold, then traded/sold again and again, the entire chain of transactions can be very time=consuming to disengage and correct.

The worst thing they can do is rush is because they agree with you that we need AH soon. That's why I suggested a workaround for the immediate need for an AH.



So what do you expect them to do while waiting on QA? Twiddle their thumbs?

Yes, developers will still need to spend some time on the AH during the QA phase, but the majority of their time will be spent on something else at that point.

I never said they should push an incomplete or badly tested version. And my idea of a minor bug is something like scrambled listings, not anything related to the actual transactions.

For example of scrambled listing, remember the double linked card bug in chat. Something like that is minor in the short term, but should be fixed before open beta.

Turtlewing
05-22-2014, 02:53 PM
It's not a matter of forgiving bugs. Bugs with trading/AH are potentially very tricky (and expensive) to correct. If someone gets some cards they shouldn't due to a bug/exploit but before they can be removed they are traded/sold, then traded/sold again and again, the entire chain of transactions can be very time=consuming to disengage and correct.

The worst thing they can do is rush is because they agree with you that we need AH soon. That's why I suggested a workaround for the immediate need for an AH.



So what do you expect them to do while waiting on QA? Twiddle their thumbs?

Yes, developers will still need to spend some time on the AH during the QA phase, but the majority of their time will be spent on something else at that point.

No I expect them to be reading and addressing bug reports.