PDA

View Full Version : What the actual...



Grimfyre
11-08-2014, 09:57 PM
So i bought some boosters and did my very first ever Swiss Draft tournament.

Won my first match up pretty quickly...

In the second match i lost the first round, won the second round, and had 59 SECONDS left to do the third round because the 2nd round took so long for me to win. So i lost because of time.

In the final match i lost the first round, won the second round, and had 6 minutes left to finish the 3rd round. I got my opponent to 8 hp we both had no creatures or cards and i was at 26 hp. I drew a corpse fly which would have ended it in 4 turns but I ran outa time and LOST. I lost a 26 hp to 8 hp match cuz of the stupid timer?

There needs to be a new system in place for timing matches...having all 3 rounds share a timer is beyond stupid. It means you gotta rush as fast as possible and for newer players that is not right at all.

Here is a screenshot of the problem, and sorry for ranting but i see something terribly wrong with this.

PS: I understand having a timer so the matches dont last hours...but why not just time each round seperately? I feel like i got screwed out of at least 1 match that i would have won...

2482

poizonous
11-08-2014, 10:11 PM
so your suggestion is for each round to give a player 10 minutes? think about that for a minute and think how many more complaining would come from that

Gorgol
11-08-2014, 10:11 PM
So, you want each round to potentially last for 3 hours, so 1 tournament to last 9 hours? Or, am I missing something?
No, you lost a 26hp to 8hp match because you didn't watch your timer properly for the first 2 rounds.

funktion
11-08-2014, 10:15 PM
In your very first draft you lost two rounds because you ran out of time. This was your first draft ever, it is pretty natural that you were playing slow. Either analysis paralysis is getting the best of you or you're playing way too safe, regardless the more you play the faster you'll get.

I hate to say it, because this probably will come off sounding rude (I really don't mean it to) this is a YOU issue rather than a GAME issue.

Grimfyre
11-08-2014, 10:30 PM
In your very first draft you lost two rounds because you ran out of time. This was your first draft ever, it is pretty natural that you were playing slow. Either analysis paralysis is getting the best of you or you're playing way too safe, regardless the more you play the faster you'll get.

I hate to say it, because this probably will come off sounding rude (I really don't mean it to) this is a YOU issue rather than a GAME issue.

I understand this but i dont think newer players should get penalized just because of time... and to the other people who replied...no i dont think rounds should only be 10 minutes, and no i dont think they should last 3 hours. I figured 15 minutes per round would be more fair. That way each round actually had a set time instead of just running out int he 3rd because 1 round lasted long.

Grimfyre
11-08-2014, 10:31 PM
It's just frustrating knowing i would have won at least 2 out of 3 matches i got screwed out of it :(

I understand why they did it, i just think having round time limits or even turn time limits would be better then "match" time limits. But i guess lol :)

Littlejon24
11-08-2014, 10:32 PM
agreed. clock management is part of the game. a match can come down to mere seconds and it's up to you to manage your clock the best you can. experience will help you with this. your 2nd draft may see similar results, but the longer you play, the less you will fall victim to timing out.

Gorgol
11-08-2014, 10:41 PM
I for one like that I can take 7-8 minutes game 1 and know I have a solid 22 to win 1 more game. I've won because of timer and lost because of timer but I know each time I do lose to it that it was because of my playing. An arbitrary 15minutes a match, what happens when its 26hp to 8hp and you lose to time in the proposed 15minute match game? Do we make it 20? Then 25? etc.

funktion
11-08-2014, 10:44 PM
While we are talking about it, I just want to clarify here that at least in the picture you've linked (with the arrows from life totals), you're pretty far from winning. To keep things totally realistic, you're not even ahead really in the picture you linked. Drafts honestly can't afford to take much longer than they currently do and what you're suggesting is adding 30 minutes onto each match.

Make an active effort to play faster, you'll not only stop losing to stuff like this but you're also more likely to improve your level of play.

Baigan
11-08-2014, 11:00 PM
I understand this but i dont think newer players should get penalized just because of time... and to the other people who replied...no i dont think rounds should only be 10 minutes, and no i dont think they should last 3 hours. I figured 15 minutes per round would be more fair. That way each round actually had a set time instead of just running out int he 3rd because 1 round lasted long.

Your champion's health is a resource that you are responsible for. As is your deck size against a mill deck, and your shard balance, and your timer in a tournament.

If instead you had lost to direct damage, would you request that new players get a handicap of more HP?
I have no doubt that you'll encounter fewer timer losses as your skill level improves. Just keep at it. :)

Voormas
11-08-2014, 11:01 PM
I feel your pain, I actually think I play pretty fast but still I have run out of time on a couple of occasions

I remember though back in the Alpha when each game had it's own timer and that sucked something fierce - it's hard to strike a good balance, but maybe it's something that CZE can look into down the road (I think there is so much stuff in front of them that they, no pun intended, don't have the time right now)

PhoenixMD
11-08-2014, 11:24 PM
In hex, time is a resource and a wincon, just like your champion's health, your cards left in your deck and etc. It's your responsibility to be able to manage your time as soon as the first match starts up to the possible end of third, and manage it properly so you're not short on time.
With a bit more experience in HEX, you'll be fine with the timers, and will learn to take advantage of them.

Vendrevard
11-09-2014, 03:45 AM
Also remember that it is a tournament. May look a bit more casual because of the game setting, but tournament still. If you went to a professional chess tournament for the first time, would you also ask for more time because you are a new player? If you are having problems with time management, you can always practice in proving grounds with your friends or random players and see how long it takes you to make your turns and play your cards.

I remember one super long draft match where my opponent was playing a slow deck. He won the first game after taking A LOT of time to kill me and he was taking a lot of time to play his cards, too. Then in the second round I also happened to go defensive and could effectively stop him and slowly crawl to victory. He realized he is running out of time and surrendered the game to have more time and better luck winning in the final round. Unfortunately for him it was already too late, and even though he made the right call because he was really ahead in that final game, he made that call too late and run out of time. I ended up having 10 minutes left on my clock when he run out of his.

In other words, as many other said, time is also a resource and win/lose condition.

Chiany
11-09-2014, 04:31 AM
Time is a resource, which you need to learn to use.

meetthefuture
11-09-2014, 04:43 AM
(didn't read the topic)

So you are basicly telling us is there's something wrong with the system because YOU are slow player? Good luck with that. 30 minutes is more than enough, stop crying

Xenavire
11-09-2014, 04:46 AM
I have never lost to time unless I was AFK for some reason. I have played a lot of drafts. The problem isn't the game.

aatttt
11-09-2014, 05:47 AM
The problem is that the timer is ticking when you are not doing anything....
there is no denying that the timer sucks and therefore loosing to time in intense games can happen! and it is newby-unfriendly!

but well... they tell us it will be fixed soon :D

ossuary
11-09-2014, 06:08 AM
The thing is, you would not have won those matches, because time is one of the resources you have to manage. You didn't manage your time, so you did not win, and you were not "going to." If something had happened to steal a large amount of time away from you that you didn't actually use yourself, that would be a different story, but this is just a case of you not playing as fast as you need to. I understand the frustration of losing this way, but it's something all new TCG players need to learn when they start branching out into competitive play. You have to manage your resources. If you notice your opponent getting 3, 5, or 10 minutes ahead of you on clock time, you need to speed up.

ylhos
11-09-2014, 06:18 AM
I have to say, the clock can sometimes be annoying. I press "F8" and after "skipping" through everything, I have somehow lost 5-10 seconds! I'm not sure why this happens. Bad internet in my side? Bad net from my opponent? Bad coding? Every pass priority I seem to lose a few seconds, and added altogether I'm behind :(

Like some mentioned, it is a resource one must managed (despite the horrible environment the clock runs in). I had a game recently where I won the first match quickly. The second game slowly built into a stand-off, of which I was pretty positive I could win if I played on. However I have consumed ~6mins more than my opponent (due to above) and had about 7 mins remaining. I decided to just concede that match, and start a new one. Thank god I did that, won the 3rd match pretty quickly, and would have lost had I continued with the stand-off 2nd match.

ossuary
11-09-2014, 06:45 AM
You can only blame the clock so far, because it works the same for both players. Yes, there is a small amount of bleed, and yes it is annoying, but it doesn't single anyone out. The fact remains that if you are down to 6 minutes on your clock going into the 3rd game, and your opponent isn't, it has to do with your playstyle / speed and not the clock.

Vorpal
11-09-2014, 07:20 AM
It sucks to run out of time, especially as a new player. But it is necessary to make tournaments finish on time. Good news is as you become more experienced, timer stops being an issue.

When I first started I ran out of time in tournaments sometimes, but since then, it has not been a problem.

ylhos
11-09-2014, 07:38 AM
You can only blame the clock so far, because it works the same for both players. Yes, there is a small amount of bleed, and yes it is annoying, but it doesn't single anyone out. The fact remains that if you are down to 6 minutes on your clock going into the 3rd game, and your opponent isn't, it has to do with your playstyle / speed and not the clock.


That's not the case at all. I in fact play very fast (at least up to what my UI allows me). I use very little time executing my moves. The bulk of the bleed comes from the animation and pass priorities. In that particular match the opponent capitalized on using creature abilities to trigger pass priority on my side. From his side, it looked like I responded very slowly, but in my side I'm insta-"space-barring". Like I said, I'm losing a fair amount of time using the F8, when I shouldn't be. The F8, isn't a jump to the end. It just auto-passes the priorities, thereby causing me to still go through all priorities and the time my computer receives and sends those information.

I have also seen others playing what I perceived to be very sluggish. The strange thing about it was that the duration between their actions were so similar, it made me think about the times I'm "bleeding". And yes, at that point I had more time than him by a significant amount.

Based on my experience I can safely say that yes, everyone experiences the bleed. However, some experience them far more than others. So there is more to it than just simple bleed.

Aradon
11-09-2014, 09:17 AM
I never really agreed with the whole 'your timer is a resource' idea. Mainly, because it goes away in PvE. When I played MtG, nobody ever kept time in a casual game. Nobody cared.

The timer is a safeguard measure to prevent tournaments from taking undue time, to prevent players from afking in matches, and to punish excessively slow play so the game can be enjoyed by both players. It's only part of the game because it has to be. I don't think anyone at CZE said, "You know what would make this game more fun? If people had to manage a time element as well."

Assassine
11-09-2014, 11:00 AM
I understand this but i dont think newer players should get penalized just because of time... and to the other people who replied...no i dont think rounds should only be 10 minutes, and no i dont think they should last 3 hours. I figured 15 minutes per round would be more fair. That way each round actually had a set time instead of just running out int he 3rd because 1 round lasted long.

You know that if there was match time then you would have lost the second game to that instead?

Khazrakh
11-09-2014, 12:21 PM
Right now I'm waiting for round 2 of my draft tournament to start. I'm done since about 15 minutes while one match is still in game 1.
Also, this screenshot from another draft match I had some days ago:

2488

I can understand that it's frustrating to lose to the timer.
Bot honestly, to me the most frustrating element of Hex right now is the amount of time I spend waiting to get to play again...

MagicFridge
11-09-2014, 03:44 PM
I offten win matches cause of the timer...
When someone plays a mill style deck in draft and needs 3/4 of his timer and loose cause his deck goes to 0 cards in the first round its his problem... If i see that a game takes extreme long and i am way behind on the timer and the game looks hard to win for me i forfigt, sideboard and go to next round quick and dirty... thats the way it works...
Only heal and stall for example isnt the best way to go... ;)

Skirovik
11-09-2014, 04:29 PM
You can only blame the clock so far, because it works the same for both players. Yes, there is a small amount of bleed, and yes it is annoying, but it doesn't single anyone out. The fact remains that if you are down to 6 minutes on your clock going into the 3rd game, and your opponent isn't, it has to do with your playstyle / speed and not the clock.

This is not entirely true. Ever heard of Aussie lag? Spam dat spacebar & f8 and you can still lose upwards of 10-15 seconds per turn if you live in Australia. It'll be nice when they get that fixed as it gets much worse as soon as you're actually playing (i.e. not f8'ing anymore and actually passing that priority manually).

LNQ
11-09-2014, 04:32 PM
I feel people are being a bit too harsh here, probably because this topic has been brought up so often.

Not sure if you are reading this thread anymore, but I'm sorry you ran out of time and lost because of it as a new player. It is indeed a bit unfair to new players, but it is quite necessary to have the timer the way it is currently. I wish there were a reasonable way to give new players some slack here, but you really can't.

I guess once PvE comes new players have plenty of time to learn to play fast in PvE before jumping into tournaments with high stakes.

Sparrow
11-09-2014, 04:52 PM
The only viable solution for a new player coming up against the timer is to get enough experience so they're not a new player any more. This can be done through playing casual games and even vs. the AI (in a very limited way), such as it is. It would be nice if there was a workable way to have "new" player queues, but for a lot of reasons mentioned elsewhere it wouldn't work.

Baramoz
11-09-2014, 09:41 PM
This is not entirely true. Ever heard of Aussie lag? Spam dat spacebar & f8 and you can still lose upwards of 10-15 seconds per turn if you live in Australia. It'll be nice when they get that fixed as it gets much worse as soon as you're actually playing (i.e. not f8'ing anymore and actually passing that priority manually).

Living in New-Caledonia I can say you that the Aussie lag is a pain. In every tournament I played I have lost an average of 2 games due to this issue. I have so decided not to play anymore Hex game as long as the timer lag issue would not be resolved.

YourOpponent
11-09-2014, 10:35 PM
I've had problems with time for about a year now so I can relate. Yes with experience comes faster response times and so forth...and part of the game due to time is having to surrender match 2 after winning match 1 (but using up say 40% of your time)...just because it seems unlikely you're going to win match 2 and you know you get to decide who would go first for match 3 (and to make sure you have enough time to completely play match 3 through)....However there ARE legit reasons for wanting "more time" Such as

1.) Bad internet connections. On my laptop before turn 1 for whoever decides to play first starts I've already lost a minute at least of time...it's not like I'm afk during this time and I pretty much auto keep whatever I have in my hand if I have 2-4 resources in it....it just took that long for my computer to process "play first" and "keep hand"...and yes that is counting the time of the animation too of it playing where the clock is already ticking down for me while playing the "coin flip animation"

2.) The number of turns of the matches - Think of the game like a chess clock in terms of time...not always in chess is it 2 hours for each player...sometimes it is instead 90 minutes for each player and 30 minutes of time added after each player has made 40 moves.


What I would like to see in Hex in terms of time is that the "missing time" due to computers not processing it as fast as they should be resolved a little better and something such as each player gets 5 minutes more time (redeemable once only per round....not match) if a game lasts longer than 15 turns (with a turn being such as player 1 plays then player 2 plays...now turn 2 starts.)

Diesbudt
11-10-2014, 03:28 AM
1) Look at your opponents time left. He had sooooo much more time. You need to play faster in tournaments. New or not that's how the game rolls.

2) if you are new enough where timer gets you multiple times in a tournament either A) you need better connection/hardware/software or B) Not play in tournaments until you get fast in your playing in proving ground games.

Cernz
11-10-2014, 03:32 AM
the problem is, when you have a poor device - you will lose time even when you play/klick fast - its the engine :)

i never have timer issues @ home even when i go to game 3 i have 15+ minutes left (most of the time), but when i play a game on my 2nd notebook - even when this is vs AI - i need 15-20 minutes for 1 game :) only due to the system "lag" of the poor graphic device.

as discussed in some threads, it would be great to deactivate some effects etc..

Warrender
11-10-2014, 04:10 AM
Yes, there are valid complaints about the timer. However, complaining about it after your first ever tournament seems a bit premature. I'll confess I lost my first ever round in an actual tournament due to time (and not really knowing why I lost as it seemed like I was on the verge of winning at the time). But after finding out about the existence of the match timer and becoming more familiar with the cards and interactions, I've cut that down to virtually nil.

Resand
11-10-2014, 04:57 AM
Time is a resource, but the timer is really bugged now, and I'm almost 100% sure it doesn't hit everyone the same. Ping time to the server are probably the biggest culprit here.

I'm usually loosing about 20 seconds or so out of every minute on the timer when I don't have priority. There almost no game I have more then 15 minutes left on the clock. Even when I spam F8. Timer issues are on the top list of my pet peeves.

Diesbudt
11-10-2014, 06:53 AM
3 tips to help on time
1) Use space bar instead clicking to pass priority
2) Get better connection / More experience to play faster
3) Know when you are in such a position to surrender.

Some players like to play out until the nitty gritty end, which eats up their time when they could save minutes by noticing they won't be able to turn the game around and just concede and move to next game.

Only 1 game have it ever ended by time (opponent timed out, I had 6 minutes left). I have rarly had my time drop below 10 even in 3 games. So experience will come with playing faster.

Also if you suffer from slow play for any reason, a real tip is to not play a stall deck where you need to draw near 30 cards to win. Build / play faster decks.

Meradanis
11-10-2014, 07:05 AM
And you can use F5 or F8 to skip through turns faster. If you have no mana left, there is no reason to play out every phase.

Osthall
11-11-2014, 03:36 AM
Okay so after reading around 1,000 replies of "time is a resource" and "QQ noob" I feel its worth pointing out that nowhere prior to entering a competitive scenario does the game even tell you that your clock is something you have to manage. This may be fairly obvious to veteran competitive tcg players; but it's not obvious to most. Not until you lose for the first time because of it; and its an incredibly frustrating thing to lose to if you weren't even aware of it.

Gorgol
11-11-2014, 03:49 AM
nowhere prior to entering a competitive scenario does the game even tell you that your clock is something you have to manage.

That's a pretty big fail on the part of HexEnt then. :(

Osthall
11-11-2014, 03:53 AM
Indeed. But it's widely accepted that the tutorial in its current state is er, lacking to say the least.

poizonous
11-11-2014, 04:05 AM
i just assumed a game with a time limit would have to make you manage your time. come on honestly does CZE have to spell out the obvious, i am really at a loss for someone who can blame the company for not telling you you need to manage your time

Gorgol
11-11-2014, 04:15 AM
i just assumed a game with a time limit would have to make you manage your time. come on honestly does CZE have to spell out the obvious, i am really at a loss for someone who can blame the company for not telling you you need to manage your time

This isn't the first thread about clock timer, so, yes.

Osthall
11-11-2014, 04:25 AM
i just assumed a game with a time limit would have to make you manage your time. come on honestly does CZE have to spell out the obvious, i am really at a loss for someone who can blame the company for not telling you you need to manage your time

Tournaments are currently the only arena which extends past a single match; I think its pretty logical for a new player, given his experiences in the Proving Grounds, to see the clock in game 1 and assume that clock applies to game 1 - then in game 2 guess what, surprise!

Like I said, its not even mentioned let alone explained, and is very much a legitimate gripe from new players who get caught by this trap. If only we were all as smart as you.

poizonous
11-11-2014, 04:31 AM
calling it a trap? rounds are described as 60 minutes long... who in their right mind thinks their timer will be 30 minutes each game. i understand this world is succumbing to a lack of common sense but your accusation of calling it a trap is ridiculous. note that i never said they shouldn't have something in the tutorial but to say it is mandatory is false

Gorgol
11-11-2014, 04:38 AM
calling it a trap? Rounds are described as 60 minutes long... Who in their right mind thinks their timer will be 30 minutes each game. I understand this world is succumbing to a lack of common sense but your accusation of calling it a trap is ridiculous. Note that i never said they shouldn't have something in the tutorial but to say it is mandatory is false

30+30+30 = 60 ;)

poizonous
11-11-2014, 04:43 AM
30+30+30 = 60 ;)

lol thanks i needed a laugh before bed

KingGabriel
11-12-2014, 01:10 AM
Don't worry, set 7 comes with a free time machine.

Lafoote
11-12-2014, 06:11 PM
Once the clock is cleaned up, then tell people they have to manage the time properly. You usually lose 2 seconds each time your opponent draws ffs. Don't even get get me started on the horrible amount voided by using a prep trigger like Zombie Plague.

Everyone is being misled into believing they have an hour to play each match. In truth, time vampires led by the vampire king are devouring seconds like M&Ms. I'm sure it will be improved at some point, but until then, players, especially new ones, have a legitimate gripe.