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Thread: I give up.

  1. #21
    Thanks. We want to interact more. Unfortunately, we're still a small (though growing!) team and most of this happened over the holiday. It's important to have more definitive, complete statements online on the front page so people aren't combing the forums for our statements on community concerns, but I wanted to provide some amount of insight into our decisions as creating that piece is taking some time.

    As for the resources, I want to be clear that 25 (or 26) resources is what our designers feel is right for their specific decks. That's clearly more than people have been trained to include in their decks, so I felt that was valuable for people to know, but players should do what they feel is right for them and their specific deck. We certainly don't want to set a precedent for telling people how to play HEX. A big part of the fun in HEX is learning the game and finding success through your own discovery.

  2. #22
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    Shaq, I really appreciate the response. That's exactly the kind of reassurance I needed. I still need a break to recharge, though.

  3. #23
    Thanks Shaq, glad to hear a lot of my thoughts are in line with you guys. Perhaps I missed which points I should hammer home about other games though. I appreciate the time you guys take to post on the forums, I know most people want to spend holidays away from the office, my 22 person team had 3 people in the office last week.

    Quote Originally Posted by DackFayden View Post
    Ahh thank you. As a gameplayer from MTG I don't have such a broad vision of game design. So pointing out the flaws in resource systems that players won't usually see helps A LOT.

    More importantly I like that last paragraph. I feel it's a point that needs to be driven home. People are still adapting to HEX and that takes time and reevaluation of deck-building and play.

    Overall I like to see CZE responses. There will still be debate over the phase removal and ability-stack(you didn't address that). But I think the debate will start to shift more to "How to adapt" which I feel will actually elucidate and real issues with the changes.
    Ben Stoll posted on the "Lean Mean Esport.." thread over in the Alpha Discussion about this a bit. I think the phase changes are here to stay.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtopher View Post
    Shaq, I really appreciate the response. That's exactly the kind of reassurance I needed. I still need a break to recharge, though.
    There's a good chance people could get fatigued long before this game ever gets released. People will be pretty sick of set 1.

    I stopped playing more than the occasional game outside of testing any new changes over several weeks ago. Part of the reason is the same as why my real life play of TCGs tailed off, I tired of building decks without a specific purpose in mind. The tournament implementation is good, but it's still just slightly organized pickup games at the moment. No PVE and no draft functionality yet have left me with minimal desire to play right now.

    I plan to pop in every once in a while the see what the next big "change" is, but until it's either draft or PVE, I've got other things to do.
    Go Fish

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqattaq View Post
    What we've tried to do is experiment in adjusting areas that were gumming up gameplay and inevitably didn't really impact the game that much, where making a play a phase earlier or later pretty much got the job done.
    First of all I appreciate that finally we have some CZE response to players discussions. Even if it saddens me deeply.
    In any interview when asked what distinguishes Hex from other digital card games one of the top features Cory mentioned was: player interactions. Precisely what You are removing piece by piece each few patches. Ability to respond to opponent actions for me is core concept that gives fun factor to the card game. While there is still a lot of response windows in current game, opportunities are removed without any reason whatsoever. Also how many of them will be removed before beta? If You seek smoother gameplay START with hotkeys for automatic yields not with gutting mechanics. I have backed over 10 projects on KS and its first one I feel a bit cheated.
    I hope that there will be announcement before removing refund option. It's alpha so I'm still giving the game benefit of the doubt but it looks CZE is happy with changes so then this game is not for me. There is plenty of digital card games that have limited interactions none of them is fun for me - I didn't signed up for project that each week is looking more and more like Hearthstone 2.0.

  6. #26
    I can see why CZE did Alpha, and I think it's paying off - but in reality, how many of us want Alpha? It's work - it's about giving up on things in the game that you like, bashing your head against the wall, and embracing change that you have only the teeniest amount of influence over. I do that sort of crap too much at work - and while I am still pumped about Hex, I'm pumped about the final product.

    As far as Hex right now? I don't like it. I don't like seeing a small bit of the picture or investing my precious gaming time into something that isn't really working yet. I also rarely like getting involved in the discussions that arise from each part of the process that many times ultimately are changed so much in the final product that the discussions are rendered moot more than your average forum banter.

    I do like the community popping up, but I don't want to be a part of it during this phase because this phase isn't something where I could add value other than being a gargantuan prick.

    For me, all will be revealed in the final product - any time I start to wrangle my hands together on a change I remember we have a while to go before release so I lay off of Alpha and then realize that, for now, I'm not missing anything.

  7. #27
    I understand alpha as "things can be changed and tested, but it isn't necessarily going to be there for launch". This is the best time to test other ideas, if they don't work--revert it back, if they do work--weigh to see which is (better/worst/easier/etc).

    Also taking a break from HEX is a good thing to do too. Leave for a week or longer, come back patch the client and see if you like it.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by fido_one View Post
    I can see why CZE did Alpha, and I think it's paying off - but in reality, how many of us want Alpha? It's work - it's about giving up on things in the game that you like, bashing your head against the wall, and embracing change that you have only the teeniest amount of influence over. I do that sort of crap too much at work - and while I am still pumped about Hex, I'm pumped about the final product.

    As far as Hex right now? I don't like it. I don't like seeing a small bit of the picture or investing my precious gaming time into something that isn't really working yet. I also rarely like getting involved in the discussions that arise from each part of the process that many times ultimately are changed so much in the final product that the discussions are rendered moot more than your average forum banter.

    I do like the community popping up, but I don't want to be a part of it during this phase because this phase isn't something where I could add value other than being a gargantuan prick.

    For me, all will be revealed in the final product - any time I start to wrangle my hands together on a change I remember we have a while to go before release so I lay off of Alpha and then realize that, for now, I'm not missing anything.
    Yeah I feel this mindset is really important. Once you've worked for a company you start to see how reality and constraints take a lot away from vision. Dreaming of the perfect tcg is nice, but an inherent aspect of a dream is that the dreamer wakes up to reality. Whether that reality is AI issues/wide player-base/General programming timeline, reality is thing that cannot be escaped.

    I really do like that CZE is taking User input into account, but I do wonder how much better of they would've been hiring a small group of experienced alpha testers. Personally I've decided I'm going to accept any core mechanics change they implement, as the CZE post showed I don't fully understand all aspects of game design in a TCG. I'll still do my best to point out cards that might need balancing fixes in their current system, but issues like resource-screw/prep-phase/activate-stack might be out of my scope as a tcg player. Hopefully other forum goers understand game design better and can provide better input there.

  9. #29
    In my way too many years of gaming I've found it is, just in general, a good idea not to be a forum warrior. People who read gaming forums every day and pour over every minutia of conversation tend to end up being very stressed and unhappy people! I remember the early days of WoW when every patch announcement would cause riots and freak outs and much wringing of the hands and shattering of the monocles!

    Really, it's alpha and CZ is still working on defining many nuts and bolts on the functioning of this game. For some people it will end up exactly as they want it, for others it won't. There is no point in worrying and obsessing over it. If you take a step back I am sure you will realize in the end it will be a fun game to play that you will sink many hours into no matter how the particular details shake out.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqattaq View Post
    There are some things that are holdovers from the history of TCGs that are great. As people with experience with various resource systems, we think the HEX resource system is perfect for our game. We have no plans to change it. I have Ben writing up a piece to discuss the resource system and why it's the best one for HEX, but we want this to be the definitive statement that covers all the angles and that takes time. As for resource systems like in our previous trading card game where you could row any card to be a resource, that system has its drawbacks too. We felt that games were too similar and there wasn't enough variety in the experience. In that world, your turns were basically the same every single game and it isn't a problem year 1, but it's certainly a problem in year 3. Your opponent always hits every single resource drop and always gets to his or her 6 drop, 7 drop, 8 drop, etc... on that very turn. That leads to homogenized gameplay, as well as hidden-- but very real-- design constraints on cards at higher resource cost. In addition, the complexity of the game (and a player's success) was often tied up in deciding which card to row as a resource, and the meat of the game should be in the on-board strategy.
    It'd go a long way to just start stomping resource threads, because that's the only way repeat posters are going to finally get the idea that ship has sailed.

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