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Thread: Is lack of multiplayer/guilds hurting Hex?

  1. #51
    Gigantisaur
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clawdius View Post
    A lot of good points
    I left this game a couple of months ago. I occasionally come back to the forums in the hope that maybe things will have changed.

    I loved their idea when I read that Kickstarter. I too, like everyone else, felt that the game had already been mostly finished save for polish. Nearly 3 years later, the game is now released. The thing is, it is not the game that was advertised. It is not the game that was supposed to distinguish itself from all other games. The whole process has struck me as odd. I remember the commotion that erupted on the forums when they decided to open the game to the public. They opened the game but did not call it Open Beta. They even stressed this point. Now the game is released but the game is still not what was promised in the Kickstarter.

    I left this game. I see no reason to return and I know the game. I have been a part of it since the KS. In its current state, I do not understand how they would expect a new player to try this game and want to really stay with it. Now this is all opinion, but I just cannot understand or see the opposite side of the coin. Maybe I am wrong and there indeed is a strong market for the current state of the game and they will succeed beyond everyone's imagination.

    I just no longer have the faith that they will....
    The art work for opening the chest is very nice.

  2. #52
    To be fair, the PvE part is probably the most fun singleplayer TCG experience since Shandalar

    (Yeah I know, that's probably no consolation for KS backers, which I'm luckily not.)
    Looking at the current state of the game, I really wonder where those 2 Mil from KS and subsequent plat sales apply...

  3. #53
    Infernal Professor
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    I woke up expecting to see a bunch of refutations, and people telling me to be patient for the umpteenth time. I mean, I hope that the 100k tourney brought a lot of money into the Gameforge and HXE coffers, because the preparations for it seem to have reduced official communication to less than feels adequate. I don't think we retained a lot of players from the draw it presented, and although it's nice that we've got Jeff Hoogland both looking to rake people over the coals in constructed gauntlet and writing articles about decks he has built...

    We need some official HXE input, not here really, but the currency conversion issue and the ability to respond to your own card (where you're not trapped in some weird limbo hoping your opponent plays something you can then respond to) really should get some attention.

    I've been privileged to be a part of this community from May of 2013 onward, and there are a lot of great people I've been happy to have met because of Hex. But it really does feel as though the official responses to legitimate questions have fallen by the wayside. Is it in preparation of the 100k invitational? I hope so, I hope the answer is that straightforward.

    I'd like to think I learned two things from my experiences in the Elemental: War of Magic forums. One was to resist the urge to assure everyone that the mysterious developer build must be copacetic, and the other was not to instinctively jump to the defense or stamp out flames where people had legitimate grievances. In my own way I've always been brash, and I have always despised any hint of chicanery, but E:WoM taught me that even companies with a storied past can be too close to a thing and not see the bigger picture in proper focus.

    I'd ask of you to bear in mind that before you accuse any of us who have spoken out about the ways we feel the developers may have lost their way, or that we had been misled through lies of omission... We're still here in whatever capacity. We still care about the progress of this game. While criticism may seem like it comes from a place of ill will, the only way you can actively accurately criticize a thing is if you know it well enough. You have to care enough about it to have at least learned the inconsistencies, the baffling decisions (four clicks on buyout price sorts by lowest buyout? Who tries that by intuition?) and the memories both good and bad we foster drive our passion for the game. When it's a game like Hex where we are kept so far out of the loop we would be better off asking the CIA our questions. At least "I can not confirm nor deny" is an answer. It's not a very good one, but it's a response.

    I finally completely understand so much of what was left for us to uncover, the fact that Gas Powered Games developed so many of the initial building blocks, that CZE isn't even really so much creating Hex as they are outsourced by Hex Entertainment LLC. Why it's impossible for Hex Entertainment LLC to have been forthright about so many ideas, not just because they're subject to change and the conceivable backlash that could generate, but because the market has become diverse and it's all together too possible that a more streamlined developer could ape some great ideas and HXE would at best be tied up in litigation. When it comes to fighting legal battles, indie companies are sort of best off trying to avoid them whenever possible. I watched Aureal develop an arguably better sound card than Creative Labs, and then I watched as Creative Labs bankrupted Aureal with frivolous lawsuits.

    But a lack of developer presence on the forums hurts in an indie community. I know for a fact that players and fans will stand behind projects that take seemingly forever, they just need to know what they're in for. Kenshi is an excellent story where a man saw the game he wanted to play did not exist and set about making it before the indie boom, so he had to use Ogre3D and code all his logic himself, much of that while working as a night security guard to pay the bills. It has been a long time coming but that game is finally approaching the .9 beta where so many of his ideas will finally see the light of day. And while some in the community decried the lack of front page updates, Captain Deathbeard himself was there on the forums to help squash bugs or speak up in a forum thread. He even responded to the lack of regular frontpage updates by updating it more regularly, but the same cadre of people continued to say he didn't update enough. Hell I have seen people in the Starbound forums of not enough communication and they update their news almost every day.

    It's easy to think that there's no amount of capitulation that will satisfy everyone, and while that's certainly true to some extent... I really feel like the Currency Conversion issue, the disparity presented by only being able to respond to your own card when someone else responds to your card... Those things need answers. And if you could get a simple guild tag, roster, and chat system in before the third anniversary of the Kickstarter, that'd be great.

  4. #54
    I want to play with my friends, not just against my friends.

    I can't even get a circle of friends together to play this game because all games are 1v1, and if I play with them I inevitably crush them with my superior knowledge and collection, or "let them win". Hex is a wonderful game and I play it every week, but it is a single player game. The MMO in the title is an outright lie.

    I completely agree with Clawdius on every point. I hope HXE takes these critiques seriously. I really care about this game because even in its broken, half-made state, I have an absolute blast playing it.

    Oddly, what has kept me in the game as long as I've been in has been my guild (Hexagoons). Developing and implementing creative solutions to boredom has kept the game fresh for me.

  5. #55
    Just an idea that occurred to me just now:

    People are calling for the implementation of guilds, but my guild has kept me playing Hex. Mission accomplished? :-)

  6. #56
    @Clawdius I agree with a lot of your points, and would love to hear some feedback from Phenteo regarding your excellent questions, but I must also correct you that they have been very forthright about why they removed holding priority and have certainly not ignored it. You might not agree with the reasons given, but they have been given.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Clawdius View Post
    wall of text
    Clawdius, you bring up a lot of points that I reluctantly agree with. But you lose me every time you 'go behind the curtain' and say what HexEnt has been focusing or what happened with GPG or the motivations behind HexEnt and their employees. We don't know any of that. There are complexities there we will never have insight to, that's just the way it works. Even picking up little tid-bits of info over the years from orange posts on the matter doesn't give any credence to your thoughts on the matter.

    There are times I worry that HexEnt is starting to lose it's way. But the community is awesome. The PvP and PvE are unrivaled right now and super engaging. They need work. I agree that the 'beta', 'release' and other tags have backfired. I have many times winced on their communication, which while sometimes awesome, mostly leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    And the timing. Yes. It's been atrocious. But the game we thought of is still being developed, and we have enough here that we know it is being developed by the best set of people in the industry. The game we envisioned will come, and when it does, it will be called 'Hex' and be made by 'HexEnt'.

    I honestly believe if the game doesn't come soon or in the next 5 years, we'll never see it. This is the best chance we have at a game like this. There is momentum, I too am worried about that momentum slowing down and jeopardizing success, or where they could be focusing some of their talent on, but they're still working hard to give the KS game that was advertised.

    Reading Mahes post, knowing he's been here from the start, stings a bit, but the game will be here in 1-4 years with all this stuff and then some. If we make it there. If we do, the game will stand by itself, history aside, and there will be nothing else like it. If it fails, then we'll never see a 'real' TCGMMO in our lifetime is my guess. So concerns and timing aside, I still have faith in what they will deliver.

  8. #58
    The only losing their way I'm worried about is removing effects from the stack, and not letting people respond to their own effects. Basically the simplification of the game. It was pitched as the game for tcg players. And is pivoting to a more simplified game to I feel the detriment of the gameplay with not really a great improvement of upkeep to newer players. I feel like all of the depth could have been maintained and they went a different way with allowing you to autopass unnecessary triggers with a hold priority button for the cases when you actually wanted to react to them. Also, they could have used that same button to allow you to react to your own abilities after your opponent chose not to react to them. Unfortunately I think a large number of people in the dev team are enamored by hearthstone and feel that should move further that direction. Which is such a big mistake from my perspective.
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  9. #59
    Infernal Professor
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightreaper View Post
    I must also correct you that they have been very forthright about why they removed holding priority and have certainly not ignored it. You might not agree with the reasons given, but they have been given.
    And yet I am not talking about the initial response, but rather the long thread currently going on in the forums. Ossuary makes what I'd call an excellent suggestion that seems like it should completely removes the concern of holding priority limiting the back and forth gameplay in Hex.

    I was pretty clearly referencing the fact that I felt two other threads should have official responses. I never said that there wasn't an official line of reasoning for the initial change, although it was so poorly communicated at the time of that change that it wound up with a huge thread in the bug reports forum, before it got that response you're referring to. The topic has come back up in the thread started by Jeff Hoogland but you'd have a lot of reading to catch up on it all: http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=48110

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowbot View Post
    Just an idea that occurred to me just now:

    People are calling for the implementation of guilds, but my guild has kept me playing Hex. Mission accomplished? :-)
    By that logic they never had to release Guild Wars. I mean I joined Guild KOS after the E3 for everyone event, and many of us have stuck together gaming together ever since. Or maybe a game that is "released" and bills itself as an "MMO" might ought to have some actual guild tools available in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by fido_one View Post
    Clawdius, you bring up a lot of points that I reluctantly agree with. But you lose me every time you 'go behind the curtain' and say what HexEnt has been focusing or what happened with GPG or the motivations behind HexEnt and their employees. We don't know any of that. There are complexities there we will never have insight to, that's just the way it works. Even picking up little tid-bits of info over the years from orange posts on the matter doesn't give any credence to your thoughts on the matter.
    I never said that I knew, anything about what went on behind the scenes, just that I felt like nepotism would explain a lot. I said I hoped that a lot of focus was going into the invitational, and that after it was over we'd see more active developer forum participation. And I said I felt that it was disingenuous that it was never mentioned that another company had done most of the actual software development up to the point we were shown in the Kickstarter. But I never claimed to know what was going on - and that's the problem. Your defense is "You can't know, because Hex players are like Mushrooms - kept in the dark and fed manure". Yes, it's true, I can't know and actually if you read what I wrote I never claimed to. I just said that I felt this, or that I hoped that.

    It's kind of like if you hired me to paint your house, I showed you a room that was finished in one day, but didn't mention that I had outsourced all the work to a team. Once it starts taking me weeks to finish the second room, you'd probably feel that representing someone else's work (as far as the software, CZE did the design and art) as my own was flagrant abuse of your trust. That's my opinion, you don't have to share it. Hell, if you want to, I'll even paint your house. Slowly, I'll shoot for three rooms a year, but we can call it good so long as I manage a room a year right?

    Quote Originally Posted by fido_one View Post
    Reading Mahes post, knowing he's been here from the start, stings a bit, but the game will be here in 1-4 years with all this stuff and then some. If we make it there. If we do, the game will stand by itself, history aside, and there will be nothing else like it. If it fails, then we'll never see a 'real' TCGMMO in our lifetime is my guess. So concerns and timing aside, I still have faith in what they will deliver.
    I've never claimed that I have lost faith, I just feel like Hex Entertainment LLC is supporting a "released" product now, and their lack of community involvement isn't conducive to bringing new players into the game. Also it's cool how Mahes has been here from the start, but I'm just a sack of chopped liver who happens to have the same join date.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwaer View Post
    The only losing their way I'm worried about is removing effects from the stack, and not letting people respond to their own effects. Basically the simplification of the game. It was pitched as the game for tcg players. And is pivoting to a more simplified game to I feel the detriment of the gameplay with not really a great improvement of upkeep to newer players. I feel like all of the depth could have been maintained and they went a different way with allowing you to autopass unnecessary triggers with a hold priority button for the cases when you actually wanted to react to them. Also, they could have used that same button to allow you to react to your own abilities after your opponent chose not to react to them. Unfortunately I think a large number of people in the dev team are enamored by hearthstone and feel that should move further that direction. Which is such a big mistake from my perspective.
    Mostly what concerns me is unilateral decision making with no community involvement. When you wind up with changes you made finding their way into your bug reports forum, it's because you're not doing a good job of communicating the changes you're making before you make them. It also prevents the community from offering constructive feedback. Which is a shame, because there are a lot of great people in this community and some of them have ideas of merit that should be considered.

    I mostly worry that I see so many of the same knee-jerk defense mechanisms here that I was part of in the Elemental War of Magic forums. We can't tell them that releasing one piece of PVE content and once piece of PVP content in all of 2015 is great, keep up the good work. Their pipeline for producing content needs to be fleshed out, and they need to be able to represent that, but in not projecting a release date or even letting players beta test set 4 alongside the Invitiational participants (Guild Wars E3 for Everyone event springs to mind). It's a disappointment, in a long series of disappointments. Every time I'm eliminated from a tournament before the end and it says "forfeit" all these years after Draft was introduced I die a little inside because that really just can't be that hard to fix.

    I've just watched so many projects come together in the time I've watched Hex move sideways. Now we finally have some of what was shown off in the Kickstarter video almost three years ago. The reason they're having problems with player retention is not because the game needs to be more like Hearthstone by any stretch of the imagination. Hex was a great idea when it was first announced, and while I feel like they've put a lot of time into polishing the mechanics and such... There's really just no excuse for some of the simple to fix
    Last edited by Clawdius; 03-03-2016 at 01:35 AM.

  10. #60
    Painting houses and software development have literally nothing in common. Even seasoned developers with tons of tried and true projects have others that slip multiple years. The time hex has been developed in is actually astonishing. I've been a game tester for almost 2 decades. I've been in on a number of projects that were great successes that took substantially longer to create and were less ambitious. A ton of the complaints with hex can be boiled down to a couple of broad categories. 1) the people involved with hex have never been and have no business being involved on this level of game development. They weren't prepared for it. And don't understand what a best case and worst case actually look like. 2) hex people aren't equipped to explain the situation to people. Either because of inability to discuss issues, or unwillingness to do so. I have concerns. I've said as much, but I'll still go to bat for what they've done in the amount of time it had been done. It's quite the accomplishment and they should be proud of it. I'd have probably made people wait significantly longer for the original kickstarter beta and have shifted the entire game back a year. Its possible that wasn't an option for many reasons. But hindsight is always better. Many challenges have come and gone and since we're getting the goods practically as soon as they're done with no buffer we aren't yet insulated from those things. Hopefully one day they'll get far enough ahead that we don't have that issue anymore. That'll do wonders for setting release targets and hitting them.
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    HexEnt is too long to type, They're HXE now.
    I am currently trading my unused GK code for a new Tesla Model S P85D
    Feel free to contact me for where you can have it shipped.

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